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No idea what you are going on about there, but I will say the Scottish referendum was agreed to and carried out the right way with regards to the law and the approval of the whole government and country. The problem in Spain is there is a serious doubt as to the legality of this referendum and the way it has been called. If they ever want this to stand or be taken seriously then the Catalan authorities must make sure that there is legal agreement on both sides that this can go ahead or else any result will never be trusted. I don't deny their right to self determination, but that has to come as a result of a peaceful and legal process, not by trying to bypass the law.
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14-09-2017, 21:58
(This post was last modified: 14-09-2017, 23:18 by 0762.)
My main point re the Wikileaks Outlander revelation was the paranoia attached to Cameron and other govt officials to avert a poss Scot indy Yes vote. As though the content of an early viewing of Outlander would ever have significantly changed the vote anyway!!! Agreed re the unison of Scot and UK govts re having the referendum but I'll never accept the propaganda war that was waged on Scotland en masse by a huge % of the media, press and even the 'partial' bbc coverage (what happened to the impartiality that the bbc always prided itself with????) that had definitely been 'infected' by UK govt 'insiders' as well as the shameless allied unionist political parties/amigos and the utter bullshit and false promises that were being made- quite shocking and never forgotten how the British state actually operates supposedly democratically(??????) in a situation like the one that I and other astounded Scots observed and listened to for months preceding 18 Sept 2014!  A lotta folk who don't live up here will never appreciate the crass shenanigans that actually 'went on'!
Re the legality of the Catalan referendum that you mention, the view of the Catalan National Assembly and the likes of Omnium Cultural is this: 'Voting has never been a crime. In spite of Madrid's fears and threats, Catalonia has it's own laws based on international legislation and the Spanish courts no longer defend the collective interests of the Catalan people. They want to silence democracy'!! Note postal voting is already underway for residents who live outwith the region. As said previously, I'll be in Catalonia next week and, as an avid pro independence Scot, it will be a pleasure to witness the events preceding the 1 Oct vote and I'm guessing many Catalans who we encounter will reciprocate that view when they know that we come from 'Escocia'. Many Catalans were allied to the Scottish quest for independence in what they regarded as a 'common cause' and what I now regard as 'unfinished business' especially after witnessing the English nationalism/little Englander mentality that played a big part in foisting Brexit upon the UK population and this happened not long after the ludicrous insinuations from 'down south' and shameless unionist allies re 'divisive' Scottish nationalism portrayed that way because of a political name that is titled 'nationalism' and deliberately misused to suit crass political motives!! The hypocrisy of it all was clearly exposed in England preceding that shit Brexit vote where the same crass political techniques were used to deceive vast sections of an unsuspecting UK voting population!! The c#### didn't deceive a politically 'streetwise' Scottish population but that's no 'saving grace' as we are stuck with the 'better together' (ha ha ha ha!) vote!! What a con!!!
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There is a propaganda war every time there are these sort of events, that is the nature of politics and opinions!! Its up to voters depending on their own opinion as to which they believe and which they don't. There was plenty of "propaganda" produced by both sides during the Scottish Indyref as well as the Brexit referendum, and your own opinions or beliefs will determine which ones you side with. And if that propaganda is full of lies then it is incumbent on the other side to point that out and make themselves heard accordingly, that is never going to change no matter what the voting event is.
Voting is never a crime, I agree with that but there has to be a legal framework for these sort of things to operate under and no single entity can flout those laws for their own good, there needs to be agreement in the validity of the vote or else the vote becomes meaningless. If this vote goes ahead but is not sanctioned by the Spanish legal system or the government, then its pointless. Its no different to Indyref2, there are legal steps that need to take place before a binding vote can take place, without that its just anarchy.
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Has any nation ever regretted being independent ?
Incredibly the Scots are always getting the "you will regret it" treatment. There's propaganda and downright lies and I know which side the British establishment err towards.
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(15-09-2017, 09:44)hibeejim21 Wrote: Has any nation ever regretted being independent ?
Incredibly the Scots are always getting the "you will regret it" treatment. There's propaganda and downright lies and I know which side the British establishment err towards.
I have no idea if any other nations regret it but in reality there have been very few western economies that have achieved independence in our lifetimes. That "you will regret it" line is what we are hearing from the EU regarding Brexit, is that propaganda as well?? All sides in these referendum, elections etc will spin their opinions to their favor, which yes includes downright lies or fabrication to suit a message, again we see this from all sides at some point.
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15-09-2017, 19:42
(This post was last modified: 15-09-2017, 19:44 by 0762.)
The Catalonian referendum will happen and for anyone to say that it will 'make no difference' really borders on naivety if the vote favours self-determination. Also note many countries that became independent had to follow the 'rule of anarchy' because of deliberate intransigence to block self-determination and stifle the peaceful route to that end - these countries 'never looked back' after gaining indy!
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15-09-2017, 21:37
(This post was last modified: 15-09-2017, 21:44 by 0762.)
(15-09-2017, 17:55)St Charles Owl Wrote: (15-09-2017, 09:44)hibeejim21 Wrote: Has any nation ever regretted being independent ?
Incredibly the Scots are always getting the "you will regret it" treatment. There's propaganda and downright lies and I know which side the British establishment err towards.
I have no idea if any other nations regret it but in reality there have been very few western economies that have achieved independence in our lifetimes. That "you will regret it" line is what we are hearing from the EU regarding Brexit, is that propaganda as well?? All sides in these referendum, elections etc will spin their opinions to their favor, which yes includes downright lies or fabrication to suit a message, again we see this from all sides at some point.
See this behaviour from all sides? Yes up to a point but up here in Scotland, before the referendum vote, the months n months of blanket anti Scottish/Scot indy propaganda from English unionist parties and media who hardly ever crossed the border 'in their scooby' was nothing short of an obscenity, an absolute abuse of true democratic values full of the biggest load of shit you could ever witness and I certainly apply the same criticism of the whole EU referendum process and result - an absolute f###### disgrace instigated predominantly by English nationalist shit heids who somehow got away with the biggest con in British political history and it has polarised the people within the country beyond belief!!!! Don't ever bang on about true democratic values and beliefs in this divided country - it's absolute pish!!! The UK is riddled full of the most shameless people in politics with no honour attached to them whatsoever!!! Scottish politics has been riddled with certain unionists who I could 'tar with the same brush' and thank god these people are not in power at Holyrood!! Rant over!
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But if it's deemed illegal by the Spanish courts then those voters likely to vote stay won't turn out and that will make the result meaningless!! There will be little campaigning by one side and no legal mandate for the result. I'm not against them having a vote but it has to be done with the approval of the Spanish government just like the Scottish one was.
As regards the countries who gained independence, can you name one that was in the same position as Scotland or Catalonia in terms of breaking away from a country they are geographically part of?? The Balkans spring to mind but that took a lot of lives through war or genocide to finally create the countries we see now, not sure that needs to happen here!!
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15-09-2017, 23:50
(This post was last modified: 15-09-2017, 23:58 by 0762.)
I don't believe it will happen here either and, in fact, the peaceful way that the SNP have always 'gone about their business' in their quest for devolution and ultimately Scot indy has been exemplary in the face of some of the most shameless tactics/behaviour I've ever observed in my life time (even at the current time, the vicious media/British state campaign against the SNP and the prospect of Scot indy 2 is unprecedented and an absolute disgrace in a so called unified country!!!!) and that will still be regarded as the way to do it politically by embracing the opponents (fellow Scots and others) of Scot indy and gradually 'win them over' as the case for Scot indy becomes even stronger through time.
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(15-09-2017, 21:45)St Charles Owl Wrote: But if it's deemed illegal by the Spanish courts then those voters likely to vote stay won't turn out and that will make the result meaningless!! There will be little campaigning by one side and no legal mandate for the result. I'm not against them having a vote but it has to be done with the approval of the Spanish government just like the Scottish one was.
As regards the countries who gained independence, can you name one that was in the same position as Scotland or Catalonia in terms of breaking away from a country they are geographically part of?? The Balkans spring to mind but that took a lot of lives through war or genocide to finally create the countries we see now, not sure that needs to happen here!!
Hows about the czech republic and slovakia? That really ended in a bloodbath eh ?
The conflict in the balkans was not so much to do with the quest for independence of the respective nations but more a ethnic conflict that wouldnt come into play in catalonia or scotland.
No nation has ever regretted being independent,and having full control over their futures. With westminster we can never have that.
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