[theo_luddite]

No I'm not saying that Art. You don't need to be penned in by fences to get crushed. At Heysel the fans were crushed against a wall that eventually collapsed. Leeds Road had fences but no pens. I got stuck against the barrier by the exit on a couple of occasions trying to leave the old Cowshed and it was no fun having to hang on until the crowd thinned out enough to prize myself off it.

There are plenty of instances of people being crushed in crowds at sports stadiums around the world and far more that have had nothing to do with sport but it's all pretty much caused by the same effect. Folk at the front of a crowd stuck against something that those behind them are trying to get towards and won't back off.

If that first gate hadn't been opened there could have been fatalities outside the ground. Stopping fans going through the middle tunnel, and even the fans using some common sense and going to either end of the terrace rather than straight down the middle would have helped. Unfortunately there wasn't much common sense around from either the police or some of the fans that day.

[Lord Snooty]

Exactly, theo. Football fans are stupid.
People slag off all seater stadiums but we haven't had anything remotely like this since. Long live Health and Safety.

---

Anyway back to grudges.
Our next game. Sheffield Wednesday. Apart from SCO, who seems to be a decent bloke, the majority of their fans on this board and the old one are a bunch of muppets.

[St Charles Owl]

Sorry, Charles but if that gate isn't opened, no one dies, the police simply did not control the crowd properly, inside or outside the ground. Agreed on the safety certificate just making the point it didn't have one.

As I said earlier in the thread and as Theo just stated, had that gate not been opened then there was a very real chance of supporters being killed outside the ground due to the crush going on out there!!  This all started because too many fans turned up too close to the kick off and still expected to get into the  ground quickly!!!  While it was predominantly  the ones who arrived early who died, it was the ones who arrived late who started the crush, first outside the ground and then inside the tunnel and the pens.

You are right, the police did not effectively control the crowd, both outside and inside the ground, and they are to  blame for that, but the fans turning out of the pubs 5 mins before the kick off also share responsibility because it was this that started the whole chain of event rolling!!  

By the way, to me it makes little difference that it was Liverpool fans, any set of supporters in the 1980s would have behaved the same way, and the same chain of event was likely to happen.  For me this was a disaster waiting to happen at almost any big game, at almost any ground and with almost any set of supporters due to the way football fans were simply herded and treated like cattle by the authorities, especially after events such as Heysel or Luton or any other number of incidences.  I remember being stood on the Holte end for our FA Cup semi final against Everton in 1986 and for most of the match it was a struggle to find space on the terrace and feel comfortable.  Not saying we were about to die, but had a barrier given way, or trouble started or a few people stumbled, then we could easily have been talking about an alternative disaster. I am sure all of us have experienced these situations at some point, especially back then!!

---

Anyway back to grudges.
Our next game. Sheffield Wednesday. Apart from SCO, who seems to be a decent bloke, the majority of their fans on this board and the old one are a bunch of muppets.

I completely concur!!!!

[jjamez]

i dont think one specific party can be blamed. each seperate section made significant errors and it fundamentally led to the loss of lives

[Lord Snooty]

Is it just me or does anybody else shout abuse at the tv every time that L***s supporting arsehole Russell Crowe appears on screen?

[HighlandTerrier58]

Is it just me or does anybody else shout abuse at the tv every time that L***s supporting arsehole Russell Crowe appears on screen?

Yes, most definitely [see earlier reference on this thread.] 'Gladiator' DVD now hangs on back fence as a glitery deer deterrent!

[WakeyTerrier]

Whoa, whoa, whoa...lets just hang on a minute here.

The Police were employed to oversee crowd control of this game.

It was the Police that dictated Forest had the Kop whilst Liverpool with bigger support were given the Leppings Lane.

It was the Police that should've had crowd control sorted outside the ground, turning up at the last minute  wasn't a new thing back in the 80s

It was the Police that opened up that gate.

It was the Police that after opening that gate had no plan B about crowd control, like blocking the tunnel off and directing supporters to the outer edges

It was the Police who failed to react quickly enough to what was happening in front of them, lives could've have been saved had the order gone out to open the gates at the front.

And it's the Police that have behaved disgracefully ever since, with lies,cover ups and blame pointed elsewhere since that fateful day

[Amelia Chaffinch]

They are not totally responsible and never will be.

[WakeyTerrier]

99% of the blame lies with SYP. I've read the books, I've seen the coverage many many times and nobody will be able to convince me any different.

Quite frankly throwing the blame back on the supporters disgusts me no matter what reputation they had at the time

[TerrierTim]

And we still have our ex Chief Norman Bettison to take the stand.....has the backbone of a corkscrew he is that bent.....the lies and deceit that are about to be uncovered are mind boggling.....and it stretches right from the fans all the way up the the Thatcher government.....