[St Charles Owl]

Genuine question that I don't know the answer to, is singing sectarian songs against the law in Scotland?? If it is then the police can make arrests, but if not is there actually anything they can do about this?

I am not sure what else a football club can do, and let's not make the solution just about Rangers, but if you use cctv to prosecute fans realistically how many of those arrests will see a court? Sure a club can ban any fan found guilty but we shouldn't see wholesale bans on accusations. To me the only way this will stop is if fan peer pressure is used to first of all not join in the songs but more importantly to shout down or ostracise the offenders but I think the only way this will happen is if the offending club is either fined, docked points or forced to play games behind closed doors or with stands shut. Irrespective of which team is guilty of this, the fans are really the only ones who can eradicate it as they are ultimately the perpetrators as well.

[supercooper]

I hope you will be just as vocal 0762 about Celtics problem rather than laying the issue at one club. Bearing in mind Lawell is the biggest power broker in Scotland. And the issue is not a football problem its a social issue .

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Genuine question that I don't know the answer to, is singing sectarian songs against the law in Scotland?? If it is then the police can make arrests, but if not is there actually anything they can do about this?

I am not sure what else a football club can do, and let's not make the solution just about Rangers, but if you use cctv to prosecute fans realistically how many of those arrests will see a court? Sure a club can ban any fan found guilty but we shouldn't see wholesale bans on accusations. To me the only way this will stop is if fan peer pressure is used to first of all not join in the songs but more importantly to shout down or ostracise the offenders but I think the only way this will happen is if the offending club is either fined, docked points or forced to play games behind closed doors or with stands shut. Irrespective of which team is guilty of this, the fans are really the only ones who can eradicate it as they are ultimately the perpetrators as well.

The clubs voted for this stance on offensive singing etc, clubs will not vote in anything that will be detrimental to theirselves.

[HerefordBull]

I think many times fans will avoid singing offensive songs, whichever team they follow. However when tensions and passions are running high at  particular games ( local derbys and the like )they are more likely to join in to vent their feeling towards the opposing fans and team. Therefore at the game after xmas after so much hype that had been given towards it , almost 50,000 Rangers fans being so up for it, found it hard to restrain themselves in the heat of the game especially when victory seemed to be in their grasp and knowing these songs are banned probably inspired a few and the rest follow. At the end of the day from past history they know that nothing will be done except perhaps a slap on the wrist.  

As SCO says, peer pressure amongst fans should be the main impetus in making the eradication of these songs inside football grounds possible.....but they have to WANT to make this happen so make your own minds up why we still hear this bile from a number of clubs fans.   ......and without other types of deterrent we will continue to do so.

[0762]

The xtreme punishments mentioned by Saint Charles Owl r not so far off the mark TBF. Docking of points etc would certainly send out a clear message that the footie aspirations r secondary to an unacceptable social issue such as sectarianism.. I'd bet the relative offending fans would suddenly take notice that they r damaging their own club's aspirations as well as decent fans who'd be peeved eh! Also note SCO down the years other offending fans have been randomly hooked and charged at other Scottish footie stadia re similar sectarian behaviour and banning orders imposed. So why not Ibrox? As said previously, I'd like the Police to investigate and assess the historical stats re apprehension of Rangers fans on similar charges. The Scottish gov applied tougher rules of law covering this hate crime. Scottish gov officials should rightly be interested and proactive in dealing with it, not 'sweeping an intractable problem under the carpet!

[hibeejim21]

At the end of the day if it was just a minority at ibrox it would have been dealt with years ago,just heard it on the news on bbc scotland there again and it's clearly no minority....no 'section'. Its prevalent and its the majority that are singing. Whether we like it or not sectarianism is illegal in scotland,singing sectarian songs is illegal. Time for it to be binned once and for all.

At least the match delegate reported it. Even with something that blatant its not to be taken for granted in scotland.

[TheWorthinGer]

I think you all need to look at the situation from the position of the Police - who don't investigate statistics, they investigate crimes.

Prosecution in his country (UK) requires the likelyhood of conviction - that means evidence that shows beyond reasonable doubt that a crime has been committed: do you really think it probable that the crown will attempt to prosecute in a situation were every other attendee at the match could be called as a witness for the defence/prosecution and there are 50000 people in the stadium?

Arrest and charge 20 people you potentially open the doors to the examination and cross examination of 1000000 people.

Oh, I can hear some of you saying "don't talk shite" but there are no anonymous spectators anymore - or very few and while 50k a time might seem unreasonable, even a situation were only 50 witnesses were called to 20 individual prosecutions would turn the judicial system on its head. That's why the few prosecutions that have been successful have usually had police officers who have heard and seen the individual concerned as witnesses. Or do you propose to just lock the stadium and have a mass (pardon the pun) kangaroo court?

The club does all it can and it has no control over the members of society who walk through the gates - sectarianism was around before Rangers. It's not football's fault that man invented God and then decided to argue God's personal preferences. The God problem came first. Sectarianism is an idea and you can't ban an idea - any idea. You can challenge it, counter it, have a social discourse that tries to neutralise it but if you take a hammer to it, like steel on the anvil, you just temper it and make it resist. Ideas have to be undermined in order that their own weight makes them fall.

[hibeejim21]

Sectarianism has already been undermined in scotland,it has little to no bearing on day to day life anymore. The rangers support seems to find it hard to follow that progress in society through at times though,especially in a football ground where a team in green is playing them.

Its got nothing to do with a 'god problem' either,most of those singing would hardly set foot in a church i'd bet. Not many do these days. Its about expressing a poisonous attitude and a supremacist mindset towards a section of society and using football as a conduit for it. Its just wrong and it shouldn't be tolerated in this day and age.

[St Charles Owl]

At the end of the day the only thing most football fans hold dear is the club itself!! Banning of English clubs in Europe because of hooliganism hurt the teams, and therefore hurt the fans as well and while it wasn't the only thing to reduce the instances it certainly helped. Other draconian measures were used as well, initially mandatory segregation, no pay on the gate, then fences and finally all-seater stadium, all of this backed up with banning orders for fans by both the authorities and the clubs themselves. Now you rarely see any trouble at football games, but its still there albeit outside the grounds, but then that is societies problem, not footballs. Surely its the same with this.

I agree with Worthing, the police nor the stewards can wade in and arrest all those who may have been singing a song, that will just cause a riot whichever team is involved. But as with most things there will be a hardcore who generally start the songs in the first place, the technology is there to spot these guys and pull them out during the game if need be or arrest them afterwards. The clubs then need to act and ban these supporters, and all this needs to be publicised so that a deterrent is created. But the clubs as a group will need to support any measures beyond that, especially fines etc against the clubs and football chairman are very slow at introducing measures that actually might eventually effect them directly, so I don't hold out much hope there. Maybe it will take government intervention just like we saw with hooligans to force the clubs to deal with it, but the big difference I see is that it was universally accepted by society that fighting in the ground or on the street was unacceptable, can we seriously say that is the case on the streets in Scotland with the ordinary guy with regards to sectarianism??

[HerefordBull]

SCO is correct in that punishing the Club and team is the only way to perhaps make changes. If the fans were faced with their club receiving hefty fines, games behind closed doors, points deductions they would think twice before singing such songs and to an extent the fans would control those trying to start offensive chants........is this going to happen.....very unlikely. It is not feasible for the Police to do much more than they are already doing and so it comes down to the authorities to change...........oh look a pink pig flying past  

By the way this is not aimed solely at Rangers but any Club that sings offensive songs to a section of society.

[TheWorthinGer]

Sectarianism has already been undermined in scotland,it has little to no bearing on day to day life anymore. The rangers support seems to find it hard to follow that progress in society through at times though,especially in a football ground where a team in green is playing them.

Its got nothing to do with a 'god problem' either,most of those singing would hardly set foot in a church i'd bet. Not many do these days. Its about expressing a poisonous attitude and a supremacist mindset towards a section of society and using football as a conduit for it. Its just wrong and it shouldn't be tolerated in this day and age.

How can it having nothing to do with God when the sectarianism is religion based?  If everyone in Scotland was of the same mumbojumbo sect there wouldn't be sectarianism.  Attendance at Church or a personal belief in God has nothing to do with the ability to dislike or disagree with beliefs of others.

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SCO is correct in that punishing the Club and team is the only way to perhaps make changes. If the fans were faced with their club receiving hefty fines, games behind closed doors, points deductions they would think twice before singing such songs and to an extent the fans would control those trying to start offensive chants........is this going to happen.....very unlikely. It is not feasible for the Police to do much more than they are already doing and so it comes down to the authorities to change...........oh look a pink pig flying past  

By the way this is not aimed solely at Rangers but any Club that sings offensive songs to a section of society.

I've yet to hear a club sing.  It's generally the fans that do the singing.