[Lord Snooty]

Sheffield Wednesday v Huddersfield Town
The Sky Bet Championship
Tuesday 14th July - 19:45 ko
at Hillsborough Stadium

Huddersfield Town travel to play Sheffield Wednesday at the Hillsborough Stadium on Tuesday evening in the latest of a series of MUST WIN games. We of course starred in the Meltdown Festival on Friday night, losing at home two nil to Luton Town. Now we've lost to Luton Town, home and away, home and awaaaaay!                    

That was a truly terrible performance, possibly the worst of the season, definitely rivalling the recent home defeat to Wigan and the New Year's Day debacle at home to Stoke. However, we have been rather fortunate with the other results over the weekend and are not yet in the bottom three. There is still hope, although I don't see staying up because of Wigan's 12 point deduction would be anything to be proud of. We could of course stay up due to Sheffield Wednesday's points deduction as well though, which is by all accounts (Jeff Stelling on Soccer Saturday), going to be 9 points, making victory in this first visit to Hillsborough since that night, all the more necessary.

Easier said than done though for a team that has lacked any cutting edge since the win at Birmingham, not scoring or even looking like scoring in the last three matches. And the Owls go into this one on the back of a 3-0 win down the Smoke at QPR. Centre-back Dominic Iorfa, ex Town Academy lad Josh Windass (on loan from t' Pie Oyl) and Premier League player Jacob Murphy (on loan from the Toon) scoring the goals. Looking at the table, they have nothing to play for, having gained respectable mid table mediocrity, but that points deduction will be niggling at the back of their minds, so this will be either a doddle, a battle or another bloody shambles, depending which Town team turns up, or indeed if the Wednesday lads turn up in their holiday gear.


A brief history of Sheffield Wednesday: Formed in 1867 by members of the Wednesday Cricket Club, they became professional in 1889 and reached the FA Cup Final in 1890, losing 1-6 to Blackburn Rovers. They joined the Football League in 1892 and then won the FA Cup for the first time in 1896, beating Wolverhampton Wanderers 2-1 at Crystal Palace, with both goals scored by Fred Spiksley.

Having played their early seasons at Brammall Lane, they were kicked out of there in 1899 and moved to Hillsborough. That move was soon followed by their first League titles, winning it back to back in 1903 and 04. And then another FA Cup in 1907, beating Everton 2-1 with goals from Jimmy Stewart and George Simpson.

They were relegated after the War, but came back up in 1926 and won back to back League titles again in 1929 and 1930. Then another FA Cup in 1935, beating West Brom 4-2 at Wembley, goals this time from Jack Palethorpe, Mark Hooper and Ellis Rimmer (2).

After the 2nd World War, they were relegated again, and again and again, but each time coming back up as 2nd division champions (in 1952, 56 and 59). In the 60s they finished runners up to Spurs in 1961 and reached the 1966 FA Cup Final, losing this time to Everton 2-3, with a 5th round win at Leeds Road along the way.

They were relegated at the end of the decade and then went down to the 3rd division for the first time in their history. In October 1977 they appointed ex Middlesbrough boss Jack Charlton as manager and he slowly turned the club around. He managed to persuade ex Nottingham Forest star Terry Curran to drop two divisions and sign for them from Southampton. He top scored for the Owls in 1979/80 as they finished 3rd in the 3rd division to go up automatically in those far gone, pre Play Off days.

Jack Charlton RIP

They almost went up again, but after Charlton left, they eventually made it back to the top flight under the management of Howard Wilkinson in 1984. Back down again at the start of the 90s, but as a 2nd Division club, under the management of Ron Atkinson, they went and won their first major trophy since 1935 when they beat Manchester Utd 1-0 in the 1991 League Cup Final at Wembley with a goal from John Sheridan. And as an added bonus to the season, they won promotion back up to the 1st Division.

In 1993 they reached both the League Cup and FA Cup Finals, losing them both to Arsenal. And it was Arsenal again who relegated them on the last day of the 1999/2000 season from the Premier League, which 20 years later, they are still trying to return to.

They dropped again to League 1 in 2003, but came back up again, winning their first Play Off Final. Having disposed of Brentford in the semis, they took on Hartlepool United at the Millennium Stadium and won 4-2 (aet) with goals from Jon-Paul McGovern, a Steven MacLean penalty, Glenn Whelan and then Drew Talbot sealing it in the 120th minute. Since then they have been in the Championship, coming close to promotion again in 2016 when they reached the Play Off Final, losing to Hull City 0-1 at Wembley. And the following season they made the Play Offs once more, only to be beaten on penalties at the semi final stage by Huddersfield Town.

1991 League Cup winners

Head to Head



Town lead the overall head to head with 24 wins to Wednesday's 21 with 14 draws.

The Owls came to ours in September this season and swooped off with all three points following a 2-0 win for them with goals from Steven Fletcher and Sam Winnall. This was the seventh game into our disastrous return to the Championship and was the first game in charge for Danny Cowley. Oddly, it was the first game too for the Wendy boss, the odious creep, Garry Monk.

Our first meetings came in the 1926/27 season after Wednesday had been promoted back up to the 1st Division. At Hillsborough we drew 1-1, but won 4-3 at Leeds Road with Bob Kelly getting a hat trick. We followed that up the following season with a Christmas double, winning at home 1-0 on Boxing Day with an Alex Jackson goal. But then really ruining their festivities the day after by winning 5-0 at their place, this time with a George Brown hat trick. And yet another big win in 1931/32 and another Town legend bagging a hat trick. This time it was a 6-1 win at Leeds Road and that legend was Dave Mangnall. That was during his club record of scoring in 13 consecutive matches (22 goals). Oh for a goalscorer like that now!

There have been loads of similar high scoring matches between the two of us, but my first trip to Hillsborough was in 1983 when a crowd of 27,824 attended a dull goalless draw in the 2nd Division. I mention the crowd because in that away end it felt like they were all in there. To compare it to the disaster that followed a few years later wouldn't be appropriate but we did get crushed and it was scary. If only.....

Anyway, back to Town legends scoring hat tricks. In 2011, a cracking game at Hillsborough, after taking an early two goal lead through Jordan Rhodes, typical Town blew it. From 2-0 up to 2-4 down by the 74th minute. Loads of Town fans walked out, some of them breaking seats as they went (dickheads!). But then Rhodes completed his hat trick as they were wandering down Leppings Lane and were back on the A629 by the time he scored his 4th to equalise in injury time to send us all barmy who had bothered to stay.

There was the famous Martin Paterson/Adam Clayton 1-2 a couple of years later, but all these victories paled into insignificance with a 1-1 draw one night in May 2017. Do we need a reminder of it? Oh go on then.

So what's happening down at the Sausage Cottage Hillsborough? Managed nowadays by our old friend Garry Monk, a man brought up with class, humility and respect. This is his fifth managerial post having previously been at Swansea City, Leeds United, Middlesbrough and Birmingham City.
His playing career was almost entirely at Swansea, being part of their rise from the 4th Division to the Premier League, but he did start out at Torquay Utd and then Southampton, from where he spent a loan period in 2002/03 at Hillsborough, playing 15 games for them.
But of course he will long be remembered in these parts as the arsehole who picked a fight with David Wagner after we beat his Leeds team at the John Smith's in our promotion season.

So who have they got in their squad? Well they don't have Fernando Forestieri in their squad, who you may recall, had his penalty saved by Danny Ward that night in May 2017. He decided not to extend his contract to see out the season and has left. Still, we can have one final rendition of this Abba classic, can't we. All together now...….

There was something in the air that night
Your pen was shite
Fernando

Steven Fletcher, who scored in that 1-1 draw in the Play Offs has also left. He had thirteen goals and was top scorer. Morgan Fox also left instead of signing an extension. Sam Hutchinson, who missed one of the penalties in that shoot out and Sam Winnall, who scored at our place this season, have been released.

They still have Keiren Westwood in goal. He was going to sign for us in the summer, according to reports but decided to stay there. He has been out of the team recently and been replaced by Joe Wildsmith. There's a famous Sheffield Wednesday name at right back. Palmer's the name, but it's not Carlton, it's Liam Palmer, and he's in his tenth season there, although one of them was spent on loan at Tranmere. Another defender is Dominic Iorfa, who came last January from Wolves. Also in defence they have Julian Börner, who came from Germany in the summer.

Jacob Murphy is on loan from Newcastle and was on loan at West Brom last season. Midfielder Kadeem Harris signed from Cardiff in the summer, having been on loan at Barnsley last season. Left wing back Adam Reach is one for a spectacular goal or two. He came from Middlesbrough, but his career at times has plumbed the depths of Darlington and Bradford City. They have Barry Bannan, who scored one in the penalty shoot out, still in midfield. Kieran Lee also scored in the shoot out and is still there.

Up top there are two lads who came through at the same time at Ipswich Town. Jordan Rhodes we all know about, but they have Connor Wickham as well. He's on loan from Crystal Palace, signing for the remainder of the season on the last day of January. He's had two previous loan spells at Hillsborough when he went there from Premier League Sunderland. Another Town connection is Josh Windass. He is on loan from Wigan and scored against us for them in the 1-1 draw in December. Also, coming off the bench mainly, is fan's favourite Atdhe Nuhiu.

Atdhe Nuhiu

Club Connections:

Andy Booth: scored 150 goals for Town, putting him third in our all time goalscoring table behind George Brown and Jimmy Glazzard. In 1996 he was transferred to Sheffield Wednesday, then in the Premier League, for a club record fee, which we spent on bringing Marcus Stewart, Andy Payton and Andy Morrison to the club. Stewart scored a hat trick in a League Cup match in his first home match at Town, but the Town fans were strangely singing about Andy Booth. Why? News had come through that he had scored the winner against Leeds at Bellend Road on his Wednesday debut.  
Boothy scored 28 goals for the Owls, but it's at the other end he made his most famous performance for them after one keeper had gone off injured and the sub got sent off, he went in goal and made a load of saves to earn them a 1-1 draw with Liverpool. He had a loan spell at Spurs and then came home to Huddersfield



Jack Hunt: is called Helmet by Town fans for some reason. Could be because he's a bell end! He was a brilliant right wing back for us, but got ideas above his station and engineered himself a move to Premier League Crystal Palace. He endeared himself with their fans and earned his bell end reputation with us by telling them how much better they are than us. Well it did him no good as he got injured and never played a game for them.
It's a shame really, because he helped us get promoted in 2012, scoring in the shoot out at Wembley against Sheffield Utd, having scored previously in the semi final win over MK Dons.
He had a few loans away from the Palace and eventually signed for the Owls in 2015, staying there for three seasons. He scored one of their penalties in their losing penalty shoot out against Huddersfield Town, one brilliant night in May 2017. Now at Bristol City.



Steve Bruce: has managed both clubs. We were his second club, signing him shortly after he had resigned from Sheffield Utd in 1999. Initially he had success with us and we had a great first half of the season, beating Chelsea in the League Cup and some superb wins in the league including a 7-1 win at home to Palace and a massive win at Maine Road against Man City. It all went wrong though when Marcus Stewart was sold and we lost our final two matches at home to Stockport County and away at Fulham to miss out on the Play Offs. The following season, with only one win, a 3-2 win at Hillsborough, in the first 19 matches, saw Bruce sacked.
Sheffield Wednesday were his tenth managerial job and one of his shortest appointments, lasting only 6 months before being poached by Newcastle.
Earlier in his playing career, he was a legend at Gillingham.

His son, Alex Bruce, also played for both clubs, on loan. Whilst at Wednesday in 2005, he played for them at our place. Dad was still seen by many of us as the bad guy, or at least part of the reason why we got relegated and as such every time Alex touched the ball he was severely booed. By the 43rd minute, he'd had enough, had a rush of blood and lunged wildly into a tackle and got sent off. We won 1-0.
Despite all this, he came on loan to us in 2011.




Jordan Rhodes: plays for the Owls now, but has actually scored more goals at Hillsborough for Huddersfield Town than Sheffield Wednesday.  
He came to us in 2009 from Ipswich, sold off at a bargain price by far sighted manager Roy Keane, and scored on his Town debut at Southend. In a match against Exeter, he scored an 8 minute headed hat trick, a Football League record. He scored 5 goals in a match down at Wycombe. That was the season he broke the club record of league goals in a season, scoring 36 (40 in all comps). Then went and scored one in the penalty shoot out against Sheffield Utd, though strangely, not one of the first five.
But then him and his dad got big ideas and he got transferred to Blackburn Rovers. He scored a load of goals for them, but has now lost his touch and can't hit a cow's arse with a banjo now he's at Wednesday.  



Benik Afobe: came on loan to us from Arsenal as a 17 year old in 2010 and made his debut from the bench at Hillsborough in a match we won 2-0. Four years later, still an Arsenal player, he had a loan spell with the Wednesday, playing 12 games and scoring twice.

Brian Cox: the goalkeeper, not the professor or the actor, started his career at Wednesday in 1978, making his debut as a 17 year old. He came to us in 1981 and was part of the team that won promotion in 1983, playing in 45 of the 46 matches. However, he will mostly be remembered as the keeper who let in ten at Maine Road.

Terry Curran: won the League Cup with Southampton in 1979 against one of his old clubs, Nottingham Forest, then immediately dropped two divisions when Jack Charlton persuaded him to sign for Wednesday. How? He took him to Cinderella Rockefeller’s night club with Maurice Setters and fellow World Cup winner Alan Ball, who plied them all with champagne and he signed there and then, obviously didn't sober up til much later when he realised he was playing matches at Gay Meadow and Brunton Park instead of Old Trafford and Anfield. Terry top scored for them in the next season as they won promotion. Later, he signed for the Blunts before in 1985 coming to us for a season, scoring 8 goals.

Colin Dobson: scored 52 goals for Wednesday in five seasons with them in the early sixties. He then joined us to finish the decade in our 2nd division championship winning side. By the time he left for Brighton in 1971 he had matched his Wednesday goal tally by also scoring 52 goals for us.

David Graham: came on loan to us from Wednesday in 2006 and played a large part in our qualifying for the Play Offs, scoring 9 goals in the second half of the season. He played in both legs of the Play Off semis against Barnsley, which unfortunately we lost. Earlier in his career he had played for Torquay Utd when they stole our automatic promotion in 2004.

Leon Knight: also played in one of our Play Off failures. Or rather he didn't! He was top scorer, on loan from Chelsea, as we qualified for end of season lottery, but in the final regular league game, with nothing at stake, went and got himself sent off against Oldham and missed both legs against Brentford. The following season he was on loan at Wednesday, but wasn't as prolific, scoring only twice.

Brian Laws: had a couple of seasons managing Wednesday, winning nothing, but is regarded as a legend for being the first manager in 95 years to do the league double over their cross city rivals, the Blunts. Earlier, he had played two seasons at Leeds Road, signed by Mick Buxton from Burnley in 1983. In between these two landmarks of his career, he played for Brian Clough at Forest and was in their team in the 1989 FA Cup semi final, the day of the Hillsborough disaster.

Tommy Miller: was signed by Laws at Hillsborough in 2009, came to us in 2011 and was the first penalty misser in the Play Off final against Sheff Utd.





'ow to get theere an' wheere to sup: Only one way to see this one, I'm afraid. It's live on Ceefax, page 302.

Wednesday's famous fans:

The most famous and most gobby about it must be former England cricket captain Michael Vaughan. Common person, Jarvis Cocker, the frontman of the band Pulp is supposedly a Wednesday fan, as is Arctic Monkeys singer Alex Turner. There are others, supposedly Richard Hawley is and Paul Carrack too, but I'm getting all this from the Unexamined so the truth may be something different. There's an actor called Thomas Craig who used to be in Coronation Street and boxer Clinton Woods.
The most dubious one though, and I am blaming the Unexamined for posting this one, but apparently Jermaine Jackson, of the famous singing family the Jackson Five, is a Sheffield Wednesday fan. He even wrote a song for their Play Off final appearance against Hull. I think Mel Booth must've been smoking some funny weedy stuff when he wrote that.  

Post Lockdown Form:

Town 0-2 Luton
Reading 0-0 Town
Town 0-0 Preston
Birmingham 0-3 Town
Forest 3-1 Town
Town 0-2 Wigan

QPR 0-3 Wednesday
Wednesday 1-3 Preston
Swansea 2-1 Wednesday
Wednesday 0-3 West Brom
Bristol City 1 -2 Wednesday
Wednesday 1-1 Forest

Town are 20th in the Championship table with 47 pts. T'Owls are 14th with 55.

Other fixtures to keep an eye on:

Tuesday:
Reading v Middlesbrough (18:00)
Wigan Athletic v Hull City (18:00)
Luton Town v Queens Park Rangers

Wednesday:
Birmingham City v Charlton Athletic (18:00)
Bristol City v Stoke City

Thursday:
Leeds United v Barnsley (17:00)

[St Charles Owl]

Great write up Snoots. Just a couple of things, I think as a club that potential deduction is front and center of our minds!! The feeling though is that whatever the result from the independent tribunal, it is likely to be appealed by whichever side loses, that probably at this stage means this will drag into next season. Of course nothing confirmed yet but its there. On that basis I am hoping that even though our win on Saturday makes us mathematically Safe on the pitch, we still need a couple of wins to potentially stave off a points deduction.

That Jermaine Jackson story is apparently true, although I have never seen him actually say anything. He was even reported to have worn a Wednesday shirt on stage at some point as well.

[WakeyTerrier]

After watching that shower or sh!t last Friday I've given up caring.

They can all feck off, The previous owner,the previous 2 managers.
The current owner, the current manager, the players..they can all feck off

[Lord Snooty]

You're not happy then, Wakey?

[WakeyTerrier]

What gives you that impression?

The whole club is a mess from top to bottom.

We've gone from pre-season when our chairman said All the players had relegation clauses in their contracts, which other clubs have not done.

We have done it the right way

We are comfortable, we will be profitable in the Championship.

FFP dictates if you lose £39m over a three year period you will get a points deduction.

We can’t put our club in that position - so we have to be a trading club, sensibly

Roll on 11months and its a case of we are over budget, letting players go because they want another months pay and letting another go because we don't know if we can afford him. Yes covid has had an impact but most of this was obvious before covid.
I cant see any of the experienced players being offered new contracts, I can't see us playing those that we've fallen out with and yet I can see we will struggle to get rid of them so we're lumbered with huge wages and a team full of kids next season.
The Premier League money was supposed to set us up to be competitive in the Championship, we've pissed it all up the wall with bad management from the top(including the last owner) management(We stayed too loyal for too long with Wagner and then appointed a nobody who we stuck with for far too long)

On the bench we fetched in the Cowley brothers who love a soundbite on how we've worked hard in training blah blah blah. Professionally trained to talk a load of old guff. Tactics of late have been shocking, PNE at home boring, Reading away making subs to see out a 0-0 draw. Two holding midfielders against Luton and then like for like subs even though we were losing and playing keep ball around the back four for fear of getting a nose bleed if we went over the halfway line. They can whinge and whine about players wanting out but since they've come in they have brought in
Lossl,Simpson,Stearman,Toffolo,King,Willock,Smith Rowe and yet we are still shite.
Our game plan seems to be..lets see how it goes. Well it went shite on Friday and got worse. The team looked clueless and the manager looked clueless.


On the pitch, GARBAGE. A midfielder playing at right back due to not giving Simpson the money we agreed in the first place. The only other proper right back option being a kid who last played a first team game for Boston Utd in the National League North.
Ageing centre backs who Boothy could beat in a race.
Central midfield, he's been a great servant but by god Jonny Hogg is past it. He struggles to pass the bloody football
Kachunga, another past it.
The only two midfielders who come out with any praise are O'Brien who works hard and can bomb on when we allow him to. He'll replace Hogg next season and Smith Rowe who is our bright spark. Out tactics pre match must resemble Michael Caine giving the tactics talk in Escape to Victory when Pele stands up take the chalk off him and zig zags past every man on the board before scoring. That's what it feels like, give the ball to Smith Rowe and hope for the best.

The club got away with getting any stick in our second season in the Premier League because they believed the soundbites coming out of the club about being lucky to be in the Premier League, we had a defeatist attitude. Everyone said don't worry we'll be ok next season but all we've done is continue the whole shit show one league down.

[Lord Snooty]

Huddersfield Town Manager Danny Cowley is looking for a response from his side on the pitch when they face Sheffield Wednesday at Hillsborough on Tuesday evening.
The Terriers will be hoping to bounce back from a disappointing result on Friday that saw them beaten at home to Luton Town.
Looking ahead to Tuesday night’s Yorkshire derby, Town’s Manager wants to see his side produce a performance he knows they’re capable of.
Speaking to the media during his virtual press conference on Monday afternoon, Danny insisted the Terriers are eager to put things right at Hillsborough.
“We were hurt after Friday. I’ve watched their behaviours over the last 48 hours, and I know they’re a group that care deeply and want to perform,” he said.
“Ultimately, it’s about actions now. It’s about us putting our care and the frustrations, and the disappointment of the performance on Friday to fuel us and to drive us.
“We have to ensure that we put in a performance we know we’re capable of doing.”
Town go into Tuesday’s game, the first of their remaining three fixtures this season, two points above the Sky Bet Championship relegation zone in 20th place following the latest round of matches.
Danny knows the challenge ahead of his side in the remaining weeks of the campaign but is confident his side can respond to Friday’s setback against Sheffield Wednesday.
“We’re all in it together and we’re all fighting for the same cause.
“What we’ve done well as a group this season, is when we have had disappointment, we’ve always found a way to respond.
“It’s our responsibility to stay in the moment, focus on the process and try to get the performance right come tomorrow evening.”
In the opposite corner, the Owls come into the game having ended a three-game losing streak on Saturday following a 3-0 victory at Queens Park Rangers.
Speaking to the media, Danny gave his thoughts on Tuesday night’s opponents; the same opposition for his first game in charge of Town back in September.
“They were excellent against QPR. They were very unlucky in the Preston game.
“They’re a good team. They’ve played a back three or a back five since lockdown. They’ve got a real physicality about them, lots of good options in the forward areas and they’ve got Barry Bannan who technically is one of the best midfielders in the league.
“At the back they’re also big and strong so we anticipate a really tough game.
“When we played them in our first game, they were miles in-front of us as a team. But we think we’ve moved forward in that time and we’ll be hoping to show that tomorrow evening.”
The first three points of a final nine available to Town this season will be up for grabs when Danny’s side visit Hillsborough tomorrow evening.
Town’s Manager insists the Terriers have a responsibility to finish the season strongly and secure their Sky Bet Championship status for next season.
“We understand the significance of the games, we know how much it means to the Club and particularly the supporters.
“Our supporters have been brilliant. Of course, at the moment they’re frustrated, they’re nervous and they’re anxious.
“It lives with me everyday knowing how much it means to them and we share that with the players.
“We have a real responsibility, for the people of Huddersfield, to put three really good performances together.”

[Imre varadi]

Enjoyed the thread ..and the Nuhui photo made me laugh which isn't an easy feat !

[jjamez]

You'd think that this is our most winnable game out of the last 3 and our last real chance to make ourselves neigh on mathematically safe. But we don't normally do well at Hillsborough so again I'm going with a defeat.

I really feel we are going to be relying on other teams and maybe the fl standing firm against wigan

[Lord Snooty]

49. Jonas Lössl
3. Harry Toffolo
6. Jonathan Hogg
8. Trevoh Chalobah
9. Elias Kachunga
12. Richard Stearman
16. Karlan Grant
24. Steve Mounié
26. Christopher Schindler ©
32. Emile Smith Rowe
39. Lewis O’Brien
Substitutes
Joel Coleman; Juninho Bacuna, Chris Willock, Alex Pritchard, Fraizer Campbell, Collin Quaner, Jon Gorenc Stanković, Andy King, Demeaco Duhaney

---

Huddersfield Town Manager Danny Cowley has made three changes to his starting XI for this evening’s Sky Bet Championship game against Sheffield Wednesday; 7.45pm kick-off at Hillsborough.

The first of those changes comes at the back as Richard Stearman returns in place of Jon Gorenc Stanković. The defender played for Wednesday’s rivals, Sheffield United, between 2017 and 2020.
The others are in the attacking areas of pitch as Elias Kachunga and Steve Mounié start in place of Chris Willock and Fraizer Campbell.
Collin Quaner is back on the substitutes bench and will make his 50th Huddersfield Town appearance if he comes on.
There’s also a landmark for Karlan Grant, who makes his 50th start for the Terriers this evening.
Danny Cowley is also without Tommy Elphick (knee) tonight.

---

Windass starts for Wendy. Rhodes on t' bench.

---

I reckon by the end of the season, that Just Eat advert just might get a bit annoying.

[theo_luddite]

again Snoots.

Tango - he of the bare chest - used to live and drink in these here parts. Used to bring his lad into The Mitre for a game of 'arrers' after watching Wendies, but took his bat home when he eventually got barred for not taking his kid home after 10:00pm, let alone the 9:00pm requested time. The Mitre, on Lower Green Tettenhall is no more either, sadly.