[Dancingwilldoit]

"Dancing I know you have your own business so your type are going to defend the cheap mass labour from the poorer countries because it will give you more profit"

If that's not personal then its a bit bloody close. The fact that its Bull Shit is immaterial. If you keep firing off with a scattergun then you don't target anything, your arguments are all over the place.

[spireitematt]

I have to agree with Dancing, your argument is all over the place. Your talking about things which have nothing to do with the EU.

Just because Dancing owns a business it doesn't make him a bad person and of course he will want to make profit because that's how businesses grow and expand by making profits. It's how you create jobs.

Employers undercut wages by using zero hour contracts and agencies.

[Devongone]

You know I was more than a bit of a Bennite .......... well one of his great messages was, "join up the dots."

I don't think it is quite as easy to say, as Matt does, that this is nothing to do with the EU, that on the other hand is the EU. We've been part of it all Matt's lifetime AND it has been part of us. The links have been becoming ever more inextricable, in trade, culture, industry, ownership, where we live, who is next door. That's why reaching agreements now is so involved. It is like two parts of a parallel universe wrestling to be free of one another.

Immigration of course started way before we joined the EU, but we did have an innate sense of identity before the large-scale arrival of different peoples led many to question what we were and what were we becoming. Our EU membership and decisions made by Tony Blair only compounded that identity crisis. During WW2 people largely knew who and what they were and what that meant. Seventy years on even words and colours have become no-go areas. We walk on eggshells rather than embracing our differences.

Divided and timorous we can burble endlessly over Brexit. Dancing naturally is scared of the effects on his business and others. He admits that openly in any discussion. I'm sure he'd be equally forthcoming if his business were a few trawlers down in Brixham, but I think his opinion would probably be the opposite. That doesn't mean he's shallow and selfish. It means he isn't an idiot. If he didn't tell everyone he was a trawler-owner, or that he had a manufacturing business, then I might have an issue with what he says. But he is an honest man and depending on decisions made by people who've never met him or seen his business ....... his future could rest .......... how would you feel? He's a friend and I could ever help ........ I don't have to agree with his every word to say that!

But Pooch is only joining dots. Sometimes that can be enlightening, and certainly we all want to see the whole picture, but if you join the wrong dots sometimes .......... you accidentally, or deliberately, distort the picture. BUT if you want to see the picture you DO have to join the dots.

Many politicians will tell you that those who voted for Brexit didn't vote on the actual issue. They just voted because they didn't like the way things were .................

And so you can disentangle that from the EU? Far from being the less sophisticated and informed choice, you might say they were looking at the bigger picture.

[bluepooch]

Again my point is misconstrued.
I was suggesting greedy business owners are bound to want to continue with free movement of labour ,which is part of the deal for being in the EU , because they wont be able to get away with paying on the cheap otherwise .I am not suggesting you're a greedy business owner Dancing ,in fact you seem like one of the good guys who actually cares about his staff but surely you can understand more than most that while this continues wages will remain low .
As for the celebs and Liberal elite quaffing champers in their London bars ,all I can say is they live in a bubble and need to get into the real world .They should try living in a small run down northern town where shops are bordered up and people are underpaid and struggling to make ends meet .These are the people who ,as Dev alluded to,voted for change in the only vote in recent years where every vote counted ,the EU referendum.

[Devongone]

I agree about the London liberal elite Pooch, but it isn't just them who support the EU. Scotland, for instance, is massively Remain, to the extent that a good percentage of its population would support full independence and immediately vote to lose it within the EU.

I look at places across the country becoming part of the fag end of the universe. How much of that is simply progress, how much globalisation, how much our government, how much EU policies in operation? I don't know. But no-one seems to ask whether strawberries withered unpicked on the vine before the free movement of labour picked them all for us. Nobody seems to wonder how we ever made a cup of coffee .............? When we said Yes all those years ago we changed our country and ourselves.

[Dancingwilldoit]

Blue, your point is misconstrued because you keep changing direction. First of all it was immigration then it was Language Culture and Law and now its softy Southerners with loads of dosh and the age old low pay. They are not linked, they are separate issues.

Whether you like it or not the English are not a thoroughbred race, going back in time we are made up with a mish mash of Danes, French, Italians, Scots, Welsh, Irish to name just a few. Adding a few more into the mix wont change a deal, it might even make us more tolerant as a nation, you never know.

Am not sure where you are getting your heads up on foreign cash in hand potato pickers etc, I don't read UKIP pamphlets or National Front (what happened to them) leaflets but I bet you would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of so called employers who "take advantage" of EU workers other than criminals and no-goods.

Not so long ago this country had a female leader who's name escapes me but if you jiggle HATCHET and add an R you will get there. She single handedly decimated UK industry and encouraged the money grabbing City of London to bring lots of money and wealth into the UK. Probably a good idea at the time but it soon started to unravel and subsequent leaders realized that Banking and Insurance were a bit dodgy at times and industry was pretty steady by comparison. Problem was by then there wasn't a lot of industry left. So tax and rate free enterprise zones were set up to encourage business to grow and develop. another good idea but what happened was they spawned humongous warehouses employing only a handful of people on low wages usually shifting boxes from one end to the other.
What little UK industry that was left was in a mess and to some degree it still is. Whilstever the bulk of the UK economy is based on non manufacturing low pay will prevail.
All this was once again nothing to do with the EU, it was successive miss management of our economy. In the meantime Germany was turning itself into the EU powerhouse, well paid jobs, low unemployment etc etc all on the back of industry.

I will keep saying you cant turn the clock back, things are what they are. The North South divide didn't exist before Maggie but introducing extra layers of government will change nothing. Its our own fault we lost our way, by voting for morons. Its not anybody else's including the EU's

[bluepooch]

Dancing ,all these things are so linked inextricably that it is the very thing so many voted for Brexit ,simply because they had no other way of effectively making their feelings known other that the EU referendum, which is the one and only thing I am grateful to David Cameron for .
No election would have been able to determine the feelings of so many due to the fact that the First Past The Post system is so demonstrably unfair and ineffective it renders voting virtually worthless .
I accept that Britain is a mixture of all other invasions of various creeds and cultures but this all happened over hundreds and thousands of years but this invasion (so called globalization) has happened so fast and in such a relative short space of time that many Brits cannot conprehend the change and are are struggling to cope with the consequences .

[hibeejim21]

'Scotland, for instance, is massively Remain, to the extent that a good percentage of its population would support full independence and immediately vote to lose it within the EU.'



Lose what ? We would be an equal partner in one of the worlds largest trading blocs.
The economic cost to the UK of leaving the EU could be as high as a reduction of 10 per cent in average incomes by 2030. If Scotland, by becoming independent, can avoid that fate then you have a clear long-term economic gain right there.

But if you want to keep banging that particular drum about losing our independence,then remember there is more than one way to achieve it.
There is a path that could make an independent Scotland better off and keep its integrity as a nation, but it will likely involve some hard truths (the core of it could be EEA not EU via EFTA, outside customs union and probably agreeing to keep Faslane) 

Right now in England you are seeing what is happening when a leader prioritises pandering to dyed-in-the-wool fanatics - planning to go for a hard Brexit with no trade deal without even costing what the economic implications are - and thus policy is just a car crash. Its going to be the working class that pay for this too,not the likes of xxxx rees-mogg and boris.

I'm hoping if scotland attains her independence that we avoid these kind of mistakes.

[Dancingwilldoit]

Jim,
Its always the ones at the bottom of the chain that are made to suffer. The day I hear a politician of any party turn around and say "Sorry, we screwed up big style, but I will give 25% of my salary back until we turn things around again" even to hear a politician of any party say the first word - Sorry, would be a breath of fresh air.
Politicians are greedy money grabbing sewer rats. In South Yorkshire a Barnsey Labour MP (Jarvis) who doesn't want a South Yorkshire Mayor was/is actually standing for the roll. Best of all he was staying on as an MP because he believed he could do both full time jobs together? So with a combined salary well in excess of £100k he was smiling all the way to the bank. Labours NEC then ruled nobody could do both together, they probably foresaw the newspaper headlines.
Dan Jarvis is gutted - I bet he is.

[hibeejim21]

Jim,
Its always the ones at the bottom of the chain that are made to suffer. The day I hear a politician of any party turn around and say "Sorry, we screwed up big style, but I will give 25% of my salary back until we turn things around again" even to hear a politician of any party say the first word - Sorry, would be a breath of fresh air.
Politicians are greedy money grabbing sewer rats. In South Yorkshire a Barnsey Labour MP (Jarvis) who doesn't want a South Yorkshire Mayor was/is actually standing for the roll. Best of all he was staying on as an MP because he believed he could do both full time jobs together? So with a combined salary well in excess of £100k he was smiling all the way to the bank. Labours NEC then ruled nobody could do both together, they probably foresaw the newspaper headlines.
Dan Jarvis is gutted - I bet he is.

Yeah,it isn't just EU politicians with their noses in the trough for sure. Look at how many MPs are consultants or advisors. Farage portrays himself as a friend of the fishing industry but today it was revealed he has only attended 1 out of 42 meetings at the euro parliament on fisheries, that snake will have the gall to take an EU pension as well.

British people now use buses run by RATP,trains run by abellio,bank with santander,shop for food in aldi..... and going to have blue passports made in france. This whole desire for isolationism is complete nonsense,absolute fantasia.