[Dancingwilldoit]

Does leaving the EU stop all that? We will still have the money grabbing little toe rags in power fiddling their bloody expenses and creaming us for everything they can get, all you will do is move the goalposts.
Rest assured that there are many many projects on hold awaiting the outcome of the current negotiations. If they go tits up then so will we.
BMW make all their 2 litre engines in Coleshill. Can you just imagine what happens of there is no deal and they have to pay an EU import duty to get their own engines back into the EU to build their own cars? The first thing they would do is close the plant down and get cheap immigrant labour to do it in Germany.

[Devongone]

We are Germany's biggest single market for cars. You think I'm dumb enough to believe the scenario you're painting? Really?

Cheap immigrant labour in Germany? Mrs Merkel's tenuous hold on power won't last long if that's the picture she hands to the German people.

There are BMW dealerships all over Britain, we've even got one in the family in the wilds of Northern Ireland. Bet they'd welcome the task of selling the least-popular make of car in the world for the rest of their lives.

Watch out tonight, Freddy Kruger may be coming up through your floorboards to grab you.

[Dancingwilldoit]

Dev, honestly, do you believe that when we depart the EU all the big European owned companies will invest at the same levels as they have been doing? Its one thing selling cars here but a different thing investing in another country.
Britain as a country doesn't invest money in any European manufacturing plants that I know of. Why would you think EU owned companies would carry on investing here if import controls come into place?
We can argue all day but it wont be us or our opinions that make any difference. For all the posturing and promising of savings, you me and the next 2 generations will be paying off the debt of a £50-60 billion Pound settlement to get out. The country will still be paying for your EU Eurocrats when we are dead and buried.
It wouldn't surprise me 1 bit if in the next 10 years we have another vote "Should Britain re join the EU".

[bluepooch]

Dancing we will be able to trade with the WHOLE WORLD without the EU shackling us .Are you not able to see this ?

[spireitematt]

Dev, honestly, do you believe that when we depart the EU all the big European owned companies will invest at the same levels as they have been doing? Its one thing selling cars here but a different thing investing in another country.
Britain as a country doesn't invest money in any European manufacturing plants that I know of. Why would you think EU owned companies would carry on investing here if import controls come into place?
We can argue all day but it wont be us or our opinions that make any difference. For all the posturing and promising of savings, you me and the next 2 generations will be paying off the debt of a £50-60 billion Pound settlement to get out. The country will still be paying for your EU Eurocrats when we are dead and buried.
It wouldn't surprise me 1 bit if in the next 10 years we have another vote "Should Britain re join the EU".

Can't see us re-joining in the next 10 years because if we re-joined we would have to take the Euro.

I'm sorry to disappoint Blue and Dev but it's looking increasingly likely that Brexit isn't going to happen.

[Devongone]

Matt I always said the big options were leave with no deal and never leave at all.

I think the EU is still angling for the latter.

There is a third option, our government falls and Mr Corbyn and Mr McDonnell will negotiate a deal which leaves us in the customs union and paying a lot to now have no voice in any of the decisions ........... (But I'll still vote for them even though I'm certain they'll do something I oppose and which until a couple of years ago they'd have vehemently opposed too as fervent Bennites.)

Oh yes, don't you wonder why anyone would ever join an organisation if it charged £50 billion to leave it? If that happened in any form of normal life the people involved would be locked up. We've always been a net contributor. People like Dancing talk as if the EU and European firms were charitable organisations propping us up - firms are here because they need a presence here, the EU wants us to stay in, because we finance it.

[Dancingwilldoit]

Blue, we wont be able to trade with the whole world. America under Trump will end up with trade barriers and him and us don't exactly see eye to eye atm, plus can you imagine having to rely on him to work with as a trading partner? Australia has already rejected our approaches for a trade partnership, after all we shafted them and New Zealand well and truly when we joined the EU back in the 70's (but you wont remember that).
I don't know who the rest of the world is but if they have been getting along quite well without the EU and Britain what makes you so sure that they will welcome us with open arms? If it has escaped your notice, we are hardly one of the best loved countries in the world.
Dev, You know as well as I do that it isn't a charge to leave - its an obligation to pay for everything we have agreed to pay for during our membership and that includes projects funded in the UK with EU money. Plus if we don't pay what we owe then who will pay for poor old Mr Farage's pension? He would be mightily upset if he didn't get his dues.
Sorry Guys but I just don't agree with you. Its ok Blue saying it hasn't affected us having voted leave but we haven't left yet. The next 12-18 months will be the key. I can tell you for fact that I am aware of many projects quoted over the last 12 months that have been put on hold pending the outcome of Brexit. If you want to carry on with your heads buried in the sand then fine but I can promise its difficult to open your eyes without getting them full of grit. On the other hand I suppose its not a bad idea as at least you wont see Freddie Kruger creeping up on you.

[Devongone]

You're the one terrified of the future Dancing. All anyone has ever been able to do to advance the case for the EU/EEC is to spread fear. Even when they make such an attempt they can only point to European peace ........ which is down to NATO anyway ..... and carefully keep quiet that the instigator of the last two wars is the major voice within the community!

As we are negotiating the amount to pay it surely is a charge for leaving. If it were a bill it would be itemised and we would be saying, yes we agreed to that expenditure. This is a GET OUT JAIL EXPENSIVELY card. It's a payment to start trade talks, which won't go anywhere anyway.

I'd like close dealings with Europe, I've no problem with cross-cultural links and my only problem with immigration is that we need to know who is in our country. But then you see I'm strongly in favour of of some form of identity card.

I'm delighted for us to have the closest links with Europe in science, technology, education and trade BUT that shouldn't have to mean being part of an undemocratic trading cartel that is the trading equivalent of FIFA in terms of probity, transparency and receptivity to new ideas. If we succeed in escaping, which I doubt, in ten years time we won't be trying to get back in BECAUSE IT WON'T EXIST.

[bluepooch]

EU represents about 20/30 % of world trade so we are missing out on the other 80% .
You're right Dancing we havent left yet but the markets would surely have been affected by now .As for all this rubbish about us not being well liked its about getting a good deal and I'm sure they all would be happy to trade with one of the richest countries in the world .Even the EU will still want our business.Lets throw the shackles off !
Dancing you're getting all worried about the impending disaster that won't happen .

[Dancingwilldoit]

But the EU does exist Dev. If you think it wont manage without us then I'm not sure who has his head in the clouds.
Nobody is spreading fear but yes I am terrified for the future. I am pointing out facts that I am aware of because I just happen to be involved at the sharp end. Our order book for the last 2 months has been 60% down on where it should be. We have quoted out in the last 12 months 50% more than we did last year. Up until September our order book was holding up well and we were busy. The reason our order book is down is not because we are losing the jobs elsewhere, its because the potential orders are being put back and might not even happen now in some cases, now what do you think could possibly be the reason behind that? I am sure if we explain your philosophies to our customers they will throw caution to the wind and write out their orders and we will all be hunky-dory, but then I live in the real world and sometimes it isn't very nice.