[spireitematt]

Matt, unless you haven't realised its whats called a "hot potato". Nobody knows what the f**k to do with it so they just keep throwing it around. Labour Conservative Liberal doesn't matter they all wanted to stay in because they knew bloody well it would be a nightmare to get out. Unless you are like Blue and believe that a recent poll actually suggested if another poll was had now the vote would be even more definite for leave (I think the one he refers to is the exit poll from the recent UKIP conference), the truth is it would definately go the other way.

No I don't believe polls, people lie in polls. Look at 2015 GE, EU Referendum, US Election and the 2017 Election all of the polling experts got it wrong so you can't take notice of polls as they are unreliable.

I think another vote would still be extremely close. Reason why its not as simple as leaving is because we've been in it for 40 years and intergrated fully.

[Devongone]

I agree another referendum would be another close shave. I don't believe a lot of people would be voting on the basis of a fully-reasoned argument, but I don't believe they ever do that.

Polls depend on how well they are conducted, how perceptive the polling organisation is in setting parameters and asking questions, and how good its workforce is. (If history showed only 10% of young voters actually vote, and you take that into account when taking your poll and making predictions ....... you might be horribly wrong if 60% of young people then turn out to vote IF they do indeed vote in a different way to older people.)

I did tell you on Sportsbabble that getting a deal with the EU was virtually impossible - they create rigid rules which they then follow. M. Barnier isn't negotiating, he hasn't the power, he's collecting ticks for boxes. If we ever tick enough we get to start negotiating. All along I've thought the options remain NO DEAL or NO BREXIT (by some means yet to be invented, but which quickly would be if we voiced such a desire). There is also now a surprising third option of Maggie May falls, the Tories burn, an early election ensues and Jeremy Corbyn negotiates us into Norway-lite and merges with the SNP.

The more we see of the bureaucracy and intractability of the EU the more I wonder why anyone would want to be part of it beyond the notion of being afraid of the future in any form. If you look at where our EU money as a net contributor goes, you find a vast amount wasted on pointless bureaucracy, pomp and pretence like negotiating the UK's exit when you have no intention of changing your position. Some goes to poorer countries and undoubtedly sometimes benefits them, but it goes on projects over which they have little, or no control. AND some comes back to us, which does some good things and stuff like pointlessly regenerating Cornwall on the basis of figures which weren't correct in the first place and which meant the money should actually have gone to other disadvantaged areas ........ Significantly when a poor country like Greece is in trouble the EU's reaction is basically to hold its head under water and condemn it for drowning.

You don't have to be in favour of a little britain to recognise that the EU has turned itself into a you-can't-do-that organisation which ties everything into core principles which become an excuse for upholding Franco-German capital's priorities often at the expense of their supposed partners, which are largely indistinguishable from hostages.

By the way that's just my opinion - I don't expect anyone to agree ....

[spireitematt]

It does look like that Britain will leave the EU in name only.

[Dancingwilldoit]

Boarded the ferry at Dunkirk this morning. First of all was stopped by armed French troops and the car was searched. Went through the DFDS check in with 3 windows open and then French passport checks 2 windows open. Next we had another car search by French security and then joined a queue for the only 1 window British UK passport check which took ages. I joked to my wife that it was probably the UK's method of reducing immigration - keep everybody waiting that long that they would eventually give up.
The point of the post is that all of the above is done in France. When we leave the EU the French have already said they wont allow it. Can you imagine the chaos as lorry loads of immigrants board the trains and ferries and land in Dover? The French would just love to get rid of the problem they have with camps. If you have ever been to Dover its got to be one of (if not the) smallest multi terminal ferry port in the world with 3-4 ferries an hour.
If you think leaving the EU will reduce immigration, think again.

[spireitematt]

Boarded the ferry at Dunkirk this morning. First of all was stopped by armed French troops and the car was searched. Went through the DFDS check in with 3 windows open and then French passport checks 2 windows open. Next we had another car search by French security and then joined a queue for the only 1 window British UK passport check which took ages. I joked to my wife that it was probably the UK's method of reducing immigration - keep everybody waiting that long that they would eventually give up.
The point of the post is that all of the above is done in France. When we leave the EU the French have already said they wont allow it. Can you imagine the chaos as lorry loads of immigrants board the trains and ferries and land in Dover? The French would just love to get rid of the problem they have with camps. If you have ever been to Dover its got to be one of (if not the) smallest multi terminal ferry port in the world with 3-4 ferries an hour.
If you think leaving the EU will reduce immigration, think again.

If people looked at the figures they would notice that more immigration is from Non-EU countries than EU countries. Also we've always had immigration in the UK throughout history. The Romans came to Britain and so did the Vikings. Also the Le Touquet agreement is between France and Britain, nothing to do with the EU and Macron has said if we meet the EU's requirements and play fair they won't scrap it but look at renegotiating the terms of the agreement.

[bluepooch]

1 million illegals suggest we have no control over immigration and we have to tighten up borders post brexit .
Its crazy that we have a massive housing shortage due partly to the fact that we have let in too many people.

[spireitematt]

1 million illegals suggest we have no control over immigration and we have to tighten up borders post brexit .
Its crazy that we have a massive housing shortage due partly to the fact that we have let in too many people.

Wrong. We have a massive housing shortage because the Tories are not building council houses or affordable houses. The houses which are being built in this country are by property developers which are unaffordable to most people because they can't afford a mortgage due to low wages and high standard of living so most people are having to rent houses or flats from private landlords.

Blue there are positives to immigration such as people coming to our country to create, build and expand businesses and contributing to the economy. Migrants also work in our NHS without them the NHS would be under more pressure. Not all immigration is bad. The one's who make it in the headlines and newspapers are a small minority who make it bad for the majority. Yes immigration does have to be controlled but you can't ban immigration entirely.

[bluepooch]

The islamic religion does not mix well in a western society we are seeing this time and time again .Matt I did say due partly to letting too many in and I stand by that and I do agree that immigration can benefit us but its the lack of control which lets any low life from any country to these shores to undermine the progress. We should have a stricter vetting system and use a similar one Australia based on a points total.
Its natural that the more houses there are the more affordable they will become as supply will catch up with demand .Otherwise we will be left with thousands of brand new empty houses .

[St Charles Owl]

Blue, I am by no means convinced that any religion fits in with a modern day Western society!!!! Christianity in its stricter forms does not agree with or want to allow gay marriage (or even their existence in some cases), equality for women, contraception, abortion, alcohol, any form of sexual issue etc etc etc. I have said before on here, the Christian Right over here scare me more than the Muslims over here do, they will truly send us back to the dark ages if they ever get their way!!!

All religions are about interpretation and therefore you get moderates and extremists within them all, we should rightly be wary, and even afraid of the extremist elements of all religions but at the same time we should not tar the whole religion with that same broad brush!! I would put money on it that you either work with Muslims or live on the same street as some or encounter them in your daily life in some form, and there is no chance the vast majority of them want to kill you just for what you are!!

Extremism in any form and for just about any cause is generally destructive and against our western lifestyles, we need to tackle them all with the same vigor!! Again over here you have the Christian Right, you have a bunch of white supremacists that have suddenly put their heads above the parapet again, you have an extreme element attached to Black Lives Matter and you now have so called Antifa (although they are not organized centrally as such) that all seem intent on perpetrating acts of violence on a different part of society that they do not like or agree with, all of them need to be tackled by law enforcement and by our politicians to prevent as much of the violence as possible.

[bluepooch]

Charlie surely you cannot deny that Islam is coming more and more into our lives whether we want it or not which is their intention by the way ,just have a look round at any of the major European cities compared with 10 years ago .The difference between Christians and Muslims is that I dont feel as threatened by Christians .Moderate Muslims who accept the western way and practice their religion discreetly without imposing on others are fine just like moderate Christians, but I think there are far more closet extreme Muslims than extreme Christians, thats the problem .Im sorry thats just how I see it.I along with others are very concerned with the way things are going . The Islamisation of Europe is coming and young people born into that will just accept it as the norm.