[Statesideowl]

Just watched the highlights and as others have said the yellow card FF received for diving was soft to say the least!! The contact was clear, the player moved across him to cause that contact and FF hardly made any meal of it!! I also wondered when I watched it that he may have been booked for asking for a yellow card to be shown to their player, which is technically a yellow card offence. The handball booking I had no issue with.

I don't mind refs making mistakes and to be fair to the ref the camera angle for the first booking is a much clearer angle that what the ref had to see the contact, but this is where he should be getting information from the 4th official and linesman who had a better angle like the camera did. I want to see a ref come out after a game and talk about the decisions that he made and justify them, which 99% of the time they can easily do, but I also want them to be able to say that with the benefit of hindsight and replays his decision was not the correct one. There is no shame in getting a decision wrong in the heat of the game and especially with the modern day pace of the game, but the refs are kept quiet and everything is kept behind closed doors. Our players and managers are far from perfect, they make mistakes every game, and we should not expect perfection from the ref either but we should expect honesty and accountability.

I agree, this is partly what I'm getting at. They can do anything with impunity and should be just as likely to receive a fine or a ban from the FA where rules are breached or shown any indiscretions as the players and managers are. They never have to be second guessed by the new technologies we have. They're indignant about their decisions.


With all due respect MS. you can't say for certain there are no dishonest refs in the English game. How could you know?
With regards to the governance I couldn't agree more, cronyism and the boys club has always been part of it. An Oligarchy if you will.
This certainly has to change, as you say it can only lead to one eventual outcome.

And if this Ref had already booked FF 3 times for what he believed was simulation, then he applied that cognitive bias to this situation, predetermining FF's guilt.
Again, this is what I'm getting at...

[St Charles Owl]

I have no problem removing match assessors, at the end of the day what they see and report on is just their opinion same as the refs is. Every PL and most Championship games are televised now, there is plenty of opportunity to review the performance of the ref, and from multiple angles. We need to remove the expectation that refs should be perfect, they never will be, in any sport, but as you say they have to be accountable and like the players be always working on their skills through video review and training. I would prefer to see a ref attached to a club all season from the point of view of training, working with players both on the training pitch and in the video room, have the ref both improve his own game but also educate the players with regards to decisions and why they are made in the matches. Of course that ref would not be able to ref any game involving that team.

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And if this Ref had already booked FF 3 times for what he believed was simulation, then he applied that cognitive bias to this situation, predetermining FF's guilt.
Again, this is what I'm getting at...

There is no way that this cognitive bias can ever be removed though, its human nature, we store memories in our brains that shape our thoughts all the time.  Its a bit like police profiling, it generally works but will lead to the usual suspects being exactly that - suspects!!  On the other hand, MS knew this ref had booked FF 3 times, hopefully so did the club and therefore there should have been some effort in making sure FF was first aware of this and that he kept it in mind during the game.  If the  club did do this then FF needs to take some blame for not heeding the advice, if the club didn't make him aware then blame lies with them.

[Statesideowl]

It's a good point, SCO.

However, we can only speculate whether the club knew this. I can only hope we missed it. Because if we knew, and FF let Maradonna out in front of him (the ref) then it was stupid on our part.

Ref's aren't Police though. Their decisions don't have repercussions on society and peoples safety. Though I do get where you're coming from regarding human nature.

Refs are to remain impartial, if they can't do their job without being bias. Then we're back to my main point aren't we? there's no way around it. The ref applied a bias.

[themaclad]

Whether it was a booking of not does not matter being on a booking the hand ball was idiocy which isn't the refs fault, so really the blame is the players probably cost you a point.

[Imre varadi]

I dont think the refs are dishonest !! there just f-ucking usless !! its mental the average player gets 20 grand a week in the championship and the ref gets as much as 500 quid ??? what would you exspect ? im not saying give them more money im just saying it doesnt way up as they call the shots !! we should have the video camara and 4th official just like the rugby games and thats the answer for me !! rugby doesnt take any longer why would football ? off course we would have to narrow things down like rugby important calls a foul and off the ball incedents and the offside rule after the ball is stroked into the net ! 3 things that are crucial to the game and happen at least once or twice in every game !!

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Themaclad lee was taken out waste hieght in the first half ? you should have been going into HT with 10 men ?

[St Charles Owl]

I was just using the Police as a profiling example we all know, not suggesting their is any correlation between the jobs they and refs do!!

I really hope we were aware of it or else the coaching staff are really not doing their jobs correctly. We should be looking at the refs record once we know who it is, we should be analyzing what he tends to do in certain situations and we should be adding that to our match preparation. Look at the way their players reacted to the handball, could it be they knew what this ref is prone to doing and played on it?? FF should have been aware one way or another that this ref will book him if he dives, if he wasn't then I have no sympathy with him or the coaches!!!

You could argue the ref simply applied the law but that FF was the only player who broke that law!!

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I dont think the refs are dishonest !! there just f-ucking usless !! its mental the average player gets 20 grand a week in the championship and the ref gets as much as 500 quid ??? what would you exspect ? im not saying give them more money im just saying it doesnt way up as they call the shots !! we should have the video camara and 4th official just like the rugby games and thats the answer for me !! rugby doesnt take any longer why would football ? off course we would have to narrow things down like rugby important calls a foul and off the ball incedents and the offside rule after the ball is stroked into the net ! 3 things that are crucial to the game and happen at least once or twice in every game !!

Refs should be full time, should train every day with other refs, should be coached by superiors every week to review their performance and should be paid well enough that as a profession it attracts good quality candidates.  But you are right the technology to get some key decisions right is there and it will only take a few seconds to make that decision in most cases.  If the decision has to be watched 10 times from different angles to decide, then the refs decision should stand because at that point its obviously inconclusive even on replay!!

And you are right Imre, that Lee challenge was like something out of MMA!!!!!  I think the fact Lee jumped straight up maybe took some sting out of the decision, but I am glad he did that and didn't roll all over the floor trying the get a red!!

[madsteve]

Just watched the highlights and as others have said the yellow card FF received for diving was soft to say the least!!  The contact was clear, the player moved across him to cause that contact and FF hardly made any meal of it!!  I also wondered when I watched it that he may have been booked for asking for a yellow card to be shown to their player, which is technically a yellow card offence.  The handball booking I had no issue with.

I don't mind refs making mistakes and to be fair to the ref the camera angle for the first booking is a much clearer angle that what the ref had to see the contact, but this is where he should be getting information from the 4th official and linesman who had a better angle like the camera did.  I want to see a ref come out after a game and talk about the decisions that he made and justify them, which 99% of the time they can easily do, but I also want them to be able to say that with the benefit of hindsight and replays his decision was not the correct one.  There is no shame in getting a decision wrong in the heat of the game and especially with the modern day pace of the game, but the refs are kept quiet and everything is kept behind closed doors.  Our players and managers are far from perfect, they make mistakes every game, and we should not expect perfection from the ref either but we should expect honesty and accountability.

I agree, this is partly what I'm getting at. They can do anything with impunity and should be just as likely to receive a fine or a ban from the FA where rules are breached or shown any indiscretions as the players and managers are. They never have to be second guessed by the new technologies we have. They're indignant about their decisions.


With all due respect MS. you can't say for certain there are no dishonest refs in the English game. How could you know?
With regards to the governance I couldn't agree more, cronyism and the boys club has always been part of it. An Oligarchy if you will.
This certainly has to change, as you say it can only lead to one eventual outcome.

And if this Ref had already booked FF 3 times for what he believed was simulation, then he applied that cognitive bias to this situation, predetermining FF's guilt.
Again, this is what I'm getting at...

There have been no incidents found over many years of dishonest referees whereas there have been plenty of dishonest players and incompetent referees. It is pretty certain that if there were dishonest referees then one would come to light as it has in dozens of other countries. The old boys club may always have been part of refereeing but it has got worse over the last three years.

Sure, cognitive bias will obviously apply but surely FF knew he had been done for diving before by this referee so should have made doubly sure not to get himself in the same position again. That isn't dishonesty though.

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I have no problem removing match assessors, at the end of the day what they see and report on is just their opinion same as the refs is.  Every PL and most Championship games are televised now, there is plenty of opportunity to review the performance of the ref, and from multiple angles.  We need to remove the expectation that refs should be perfect, they never will be, in any sport, but as you say they have to be accountable and like the players be always working on their skills through video review and training.  I would prefer to see a ref attached to a club all season from the point of view of training, working with players both on the training pitch and in the video room, have the ref both improve his own game but also educate the players with regards to decisions and why they are made in the matches.  Of course that ref would not be able to ref any game involving that team.

---

And if this Ref had already booked FF 3 times for what he believed was simulation, then he applied that cognitive bias to this situation, predetermining FF's guilt.
Again, this is what I'm getting at...

There is no way that this cognitive bias can ever be removed though, its human nature, we store memories in our brains that shape our thoughts all the time.  Its a bit like police profiling, it generally works but will lead to the usual suspects being exactly that - suspects!!  On the other hand, MS knew this ref had booked FF 3 times, hopefully so did the club and therefore there should have been some effort in making sure FF was first aware of this and that he kept it in mind during the game.  If the  club did do this then FF needs to take some blame for not heeding the advice, if the club didn't make him aware then blame lies with them.

The problem with removing match assessors is that they also provide coaching to referees and they are varied so a referees get assessed by tens of experienced former officials. Now, they just get judged by Mike Riley & his two mates and don't get any feedback on performances until the Thursday following a weekend match.

If a referee in regularly incompetent, it is hard to remove him because the possible replacements are even worse. Keith Stroud was moved back to the PL list this season but has so far only been given two matches, at Crystal Palace & Watford. Same with the other promoted PL referees. Stuart Atwell has been given four PL games at West Brom, Swansea, Palace & Sunderland. Simon Hooper has been given one PL match at Norwich. Graham Scott has been given four PL games at Sunderland, Norwich, Swansea & Bournemouth. Paul Tierney has been given three PL matches at Watford, Southampton & West Ham. 

They clearly don't trust the newer referees as these guys only get a handful of PL matches at the lowest profile games while the leading referees have done 30+ matches already.

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I dont think the refs are dishonest !! there just f-ucking usless !! its mental the average player gets 20 grand a week in the championship and the ref gets as much as 500 quid ??? what would you exspect ? im not saying give them more money im just saying it doesnt way up as they call the shots !! we should have the video camara and 4th official just like the rugby games and thats the answer for me !! rugby doesnt take any longer why would football ? off course we would have to narrow things down like rugby important calls a foul and off the ball incedents and the offside rule after the ball is stroked into the net ! 3 things that are crucial to the game and happen at least once or twice in every game !!

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Themaclad lee was taken out waste hieght in the first half ? you should have been going into HT with 10 men ?

PGMOL referees get a basic salary of around £75k plus match & training expenses. Beyond the 17 PGMOL referees, the rest are part time although the SBC referees are expected to go full time next season.

Once video evidence comes in more then mistakes will be highlighted more & standards will rise.

[Maddix]

Themaclad lee was taken out waste hieght in the first half ? you should have been going into HT with 10 men ?

And the perpetrator had already been booked   The ref was just a homer yesterday 

[Statesideowl]

Good points everyone. It's nice that we can all see it differently and no one gets called a C***

I can only hope you're right MS with regards to video evidence raising the bar

[St Charles Owl]

Good points everyone. It's nice that we can all see it differently and no one gets called a C***

I can only hope you're right MS with regards to video evidence raising the bar

Even if it doesn't raise the bar it will at least make sure the correct decision is arrived at, even if it takes 30 seconds for the verdict to be delivered.

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Themaclad lee was taken out waste hieght in the first half ? you should have been going into HT with 10 men ?

And the perpetrator had already been booked   The ref was just a homer yesterday 

Seriously???  I thought this was the challenge he was booked for??  In that case he didn't even get a yellow for that challenge??  Thats not good!!!!!