(21-02-2016, 18:30)Statesideowl Wrote:(21-02-2016, 17:59)St Charles Owl Wrote: Just watched the highlights and as others have said the yellow card FF received for diving was soft to say the least!! The contact was clear, the player moved across him to cause that contact and FF hardly made any meal of it!! I also wondered when I watched it that he may have been booked for asking for a yellow card to be shown to their player, which is technically a yellow card offence. The handball booking I had no issue with.
I don't mind refs making mistakes and to be fair to the ref the camera angle for the first booking is a much clearer angle that what the ref had to see the contact, but this is where he should be getting information from the 4th official and linesman who had a better angle like the camera did. I want to see a ref come out after a game and talk about the decisions that he made and justify them, which 99% of the time they can easily do, but I also want them to be able to say that with the benefit of hindsight and replays his decision was not the correct one. There is no shame in getting a decision wrong in the heat of the game and especially with the modern day pace of the game, but the refs are kept quiet and everything is kept behind closed doors. Our players and managers are far from perfect, they make mistakes every game, and we should not expect perfection from the ref either but we should expect honesty and accountability.
I agree, this is partly what I'm getting at. They can do anything with impunity and should be just as likely to receive a fine or a ban from the FA where rules are breached or shown any indiscretions as the players and managers are. They never have to be second guessed by the new technologies we have. They're indignant about their decisions.
With all due respect MS. you can't say for certain there are no dishonest refs in the English game. How could you know?
With regards to the governance I couldn't agree more, cronyism and the boys club has always been part of it. An Oligarchy if you will.
This certainly has to change, as you say it can only lead to one eventual outcome.
And if this Ref had already booked FF 3 times for what he believed was simulation, then he applied that cognitive bias to this situation, predetermining FF's guilt.
Again, this is what I'm getting at...
There have been no incidents found over many years of dishonest referees whereas there have been plenty of dishonest players and incompetent referees. It is pretty certain that if there were dishonest referees then one would come to light as it has in dozens of other countries. The old boys club may always have been part of refereeing but it has got worse over the last three years.
Sure, cognitive bias will obviously apply but surely FF knew he had been done for diving before by this referee so should have made doubly sure not to get himself in the same position again. That isn't dishonesty though.
(21-02-2016, 18:30)St Charles Owl Wrote: I have no problem removing match assessors, at the end of the day what they see and report on is just their opinion same as the refs is. Every PL and most Championship games are televised now, there is plenty of opportunity to review the performance of the ref, and from multiple angles. We need to remove the expectation that refs should be perfect, they never will be, in any sport, but as you say they have to be accountable and like the players be always working on their skills through video review and training. I would prefer to see a ref attached to a club all season from the point of view of training, working with players both on the training pitch and in the video room, have the ref both improve his own game but also educate the players with regards to decisions and why they are made in the matches. Of course that ref would not be able to ref any game involving that team.
(21-02-2016, 18:30)Statesideowl Wrote: And if this Ref had already booked FF 3 times for what he believed was simulation, then he applied that cognitive bias to this situation, predetermining FF's guilt.
Again, this is what I'm getting at...
There is no way that this cognitive bias can ever be removed though, its human nature, we store memories in our brains that shape our thoughts all the time. Its a bit like police profiling, it generally works but will lead to the usual suspects being exactly that - suspects!! On the other hand, MS knew this ref had booked FF 3 times, hopefully so did the club and therefore there should have been some effort in making sure FF was first aware of this and that he kept it in mind during the game. If the club did do this then FF needs to take some blame for not heeding the advice, if the club didn't make him aware then blame lies with them.
The problem with removing match assessors is that they also provide coaching to referees and they are varied so a referees get assessed by tens of experienced former officials. Now, they just get judged by Mike Riley & his two mates and don't get any feedback on performances until the Thursday following a weekend match.
If a referee in regularly incompetent, it is hard to remove him because the possible replacements are even worse. Keith Stroud was moved back to the PL list this season but has so far only been given two matches, at Crystal Palace & Watford. Same with the other promoted PL referees. Stuart Atwell has been given four PL games at West Brom, Swansea, Palace & Sunderland. Simon Hooper has been given one PL match at Norwich. Graham Scott has been given four PL games at Sunderland, Norwich, Swansea & Bournemouth. Paul Tierney has been given three PL matches at Watford, Southampton & West Ham.
They clearly don't trust the newer referees as these guys only get a handful of PL matches at the lowest profile games while the leading referees have done 30+ matches already.
(21-02-2016, 18:57)Imre varadi Wrote: I dont think the refs are dishonest !! there just f-ucking usless !! its mental the average player gets 20 grand a week in the championship and the ref gets as much as 500 quid ??? what would you exspect ? im not saying give them more money im just saying it doesnt way up as they call the shots !! we should have the video camara and 4th official just like the rugby games and thats the answer for me !! rugby doesnt take any longer why would football ? off course we would have to narrow things down like rugby important calls a foul and off the ball incedents and the offside rule after the ball is stroked into the net ! 3 things that are crucial to the game and happen at least once or twice in every game !!
Themaclad lee was taken out waste hieght in the first half ? you should have been going into HT with 10 men ?
PGMOL referees get a basic salary of around £75k plus match & training expenses. Beyond the 17 PGMOL referees, the rest are part time although the SBC referees are expected to go full time next season.
Once video evidence comes in more then mistakes will be highlighted more & standards will rise.
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.