[madsteve]

think that's down to the chairmen wanting instant success as well, resulting in the academy being pretty much non-existent (along with scouting networks, coaching staff etc) and no long term plans being in place. Up until about 4 years ago we hardly funded the academy

also, we as a group of fans don't have the patience to wait for people to come through the system. When DJ and MM pushed the academy we were told it could be 5/6 years before we see any players come through, it's only been 3 and, regularly, I see people argue that the academy is a waste of time, we don't see any benefits and we should stop funding it

I wasn't referring to the Academy. I think that will do fine for us given time.

I was referring to young players after they hit the first team, they rarely improve. Look at Wood, Spurr, Beevers & McCallister. None of them continued to develop after they became first team regulars. All players should be given personal improvement targets and developed so they improve each season. For example, it was obvious that Spurr had no right foot when he hit the first team. Three years later, his right foot was no better. We need coaches that work on improving our first team players or else Palmer will fade away in a year or two.

While I agree with what you say MS, not sure those examples really fit as none of those players really went on  to anything better after they left us!!  I think our main problem has been the  inability to attract enough quality players, particularly youngsters first because until MM bought us we had a bad academy and a non-existant scouting network.  Most young players were either local lads or fell into our lap from somewhere.  Now we have a much better set up I would hope we can cast our net wider and with new owners we should be a more attractive proposition for younger players.

We had Spurr (age 17 - 24), Wood (age 17 - 24) & Beevers (age 16 - 23). Those are the ages at which they should be improving yet I would suggest that none of them were any better on the day they left than they were when they were 18. There was talk of Beevers attracting a multi million pound fee & being a future international at 18 but he wasn't coached to improve as a player.

This doesn't reflect well on BL, AI, GM, DJ & SG but more importantly, it doesn't reflect well on the situation in which they have to perform. A Manager or Head Coach has several tasks to perform and one that we have failed at for many many years is the one of improving the ability of individual players. Can you name many players that we have had over the last decade that have continued to improve past the age of 19 or 20.

I think Palmer has improved but the improvement seemed to happen in the year he spent at Tranmere. Has Nuhui improved as a striker in his two seasons at S6?

In the debate about Antonio, some posters have said that he has improved since he went to Forest. I am struggling to think of any players that have improved while being at Wednesday.

All our Managers think about is winning the next match. They cannot think long term or even medium term because there will be no medium term if they lose the next five matches, This means they rely on players as they are or new signings to improve the team & ignore improving the players that they already have at the Club.

While the Manager will always concentrate on first team results, there has to be someone within the coaching team responsible for the personal development of the individual players. At Man Utd, the majority of players stay behind and do personal training in the afternoon, as happens at many clubs. At Wednesday the culture is to just do the basic training and not come back to do any extra.