[spireitematt]

Thats the problem labour have going forward - I mean its easy to blame Corbyn but labours vote in these areas has been dropping since blair. - How do they appeal to the 'stoopid vote' without selling their democratic socialist roots out ?

I'm of the opinion we need a strong labour party in England to achieve independence. From the current crop of potential leaders only Starmer looks electable, but is he going to appeal on the doorsteps in middle England ?

The gigs fucked.

Starmer won't be the leader, Momentum have got full control, the NEC is full of Momentum. The next leader will be Corbyn's protege, Corbyn will choose one he wants to be the next leader and Momentum and the Corbynista members will vote for them and will get fully behind them and then we will be back to square one, where we have an ineffective opposition with an unelectable party and Labour will be out for such a long time.

Labour is going to tear itself apart and Momentum and the moderates are going to fight and the party will be split and we could see the party splitting up with a new party being formed.

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You could replace the "dumb" description with "buffoon" SCO because that was a common enough word used to describe Johnson throughout England. All that he and his fascist party did was provide that one soundbite - "Get Brexit Done". It was direct, robotic and to the point because a lotta the population in England were obsessed with and favoured Brexit. As you say, and has been often said throughout this OP - Corbyn "sat on the fence" and dithered instead of "choosing a side" and, more importantly, READING THEIR POLITICAL SITUATION IN ENGLAND PROPERLY. Also why did the fool walk into that election trap and agree to having a Xmas election and then comment, "I've been assured there will be no hard Brexit"????? Somebody explain that to me because I thought he was an absolute idiot to concede to a Xmas GE!!!!???? The SNP wanted that election because they had a solid plan and it was successful!!!! In Scotland, the SNP similarly advertised a direct decisive message to a population that they knew intimately in a political sense - Stop Brexit, stop Johnson (despised in Scotland!!!) and vote SNP if you want independence for Scotland - it was a clear message and mandate and it attained a landslide victory with only a handful of MPs, all Tory, who are left in Scotland to preach to a Scot population about their pro Brexit vision - none of the other elected MPs, obviously incl SNP, want Brexit!! These remaining Tory MPs are now being "terrorised" as I speak - they are living in the wrong country with a different political philosophy and they've been shocked by this landslide victory! I wasn't - I predicted it (49 seats said I and missed it by 1 seat!) and expected Johnson's win as well due to many of the reasons previously debated in this OP!

There doesn't have to be a hard Brexit now because now Johnson has a 80 seat majority he doesn't have to appeal and please the ERG anymore, so he could become more liberal but I doubt that.