15-11-2017, 18:05
My views haven't changed. Before the referendum result I thought the choice was between No Deal and Remaining .... and I still think thy're the only two players in the game.
Everyone talks about the cons and the fake facts behind that result ...... but wasn't it always the concept of a negotiated departure that was the biggest con of all? We come out of talks and pretend they were fruitful. They come out and threaten that our pets are going to get it. Rapprochement my arse! Cameron spent months touring and glad-handing every member state before the referendum and achieved next to nothing. During the debate Germany and France made it clear they'd make us sorry if we voted to leave, they never gave us any positive reasons to stay and still haven't as far as I'm aware - even though there are some. Now the talks can't move on for reasons the EEC has imposed both upon itself and the negotiations. The truth is that either:-
No deal can be achieved because negotiations have never really started, despite what we see on TV.
or:-
No deal can be achieved because the angry statements and threats from nice Monsieurs Juncker et Barnier were actually the negotiations themselves and represented positions they would never leave. (There was once a Grand National winner called Comply or Die, that's the Strasbourg negotiation technique.)
As our Government is largely clueless and doesn't really know whether the country wants to leave or not (which may actually make it representatively democratic), there is no real impetus, other than Mrs May trying to frame a 2019 date in law, for anyone to move anything on. It is obviously in Europe's interest to go as slowly as possible to ratchet up the pressure on us. Sadly of course they are as inefficient and twice as bureaucratic as us ....... so even if they decide a deal would be in their best interests, they'll move too late. Seven years to get a trade deal with Canada because of the opposition of two small parts of Belgium?!!!***
There is of course a chance our government will commit suicide. If Labour wins the election a quick deal would be possible, as would another referendum. I'd vote Corbyn but I'd still vote to leave. The Common Market is like FIFA without the Caribbean connection in my eyes, but I'm not used to being in a majority and wouldn't expect to be. I don't like most of the company being a leaver puts me in, but then Tony Blair's a remainer (and that's poke your own eyes out with a sharp stick time).
I'd like to agree with 0762 that what finally happens will represent a return to common-sense in some way, but in truth I have to say I think we'll wind up somewhere for no-good-reason and we'll attempt to justify it as our country's opportunity to frame its own future (that's in, out, or shake it all about!)
Everyone talks about the cons and the fake facts behind that result ...... but wasn't it always the concept of a negotiated departure that was the biggest con of all? We come out of talks and pretend they were fruitful. They come out and threaten that our pets are going to get it. Rapprochement my arse! Cameron spent months touring and glad-handing every member state before the referendum and achieved next to nothing. During the debate Germany and France made it clear they'd make us sorry if we voted to leave, they never gave us any positive reasons to stay and still haven't as far as I'm aware - even though there are some. Now the talks can't move on for reasons the EEC has imposed both upon itself and the negotiations. The truth is that either:-
No deal can be achieved because negotiations have never really started, despite what we see on TV.
or:-
No deal can be achieved because the angry statements and threats from nice Monsieurs Juncker et Barnier were actually the negotiations themselves and represented positions they would never leave. (There was once a Grand National winner called Comply or Die, that's the Strasbourg negotiation technique.)
As our Government is largely clueless and doesn't really know whether the country wants to leave or not (which may actually make it representatively democratic), there is no real impetus, other than Mrs May trying to frame a 2019 date in law, for anyone to move anything on. It is obviously in Europe's interest to go as slowly as possible to ratchet up the pressure on us. Sadly of course they are as inefficient and twice as bureaucratic as us ....... so even if they decide a deal would be in their best interests, they'll move too late. Seven years to get a trade deal with Canada because of the opposition of two small parts of Belgium?!!!***
There is of course a chance our government will commit suicide. If Labour wins the election a quick deal would be possible, as would another referendum. I'd vote Corbyn but I'd still vote to leave. The Common Market is like FIFA without the Caribbean connection in my eyes, but I'm not used to being in a majority and wouldn't expect to be. I don't like most of the company being a leaver puts me in, but then Tony Blair's a remainer (and that's poke your own eyes out with a sharp stick time).
I'd like to agree with 0762 that what finally happens will represent a return to common-sense in some way, but in truth I have to say I think we'll wind up somewhere for no-good-reason and we'll attempt to justify it as our country's opportunity to frame its own future (that's in, out, or shake it all about!)