[Trusevich]

Good, then we are in agreement.

[St Charles Owl]

The OF is, and always has been, a very emotive subject for all fans of Scottish football, from those directly associated with it to those looking in on it from the outside. This forum is a football forum and as such this is exactly the sort of topic that should be discussed by the members if they feel they have something to say about it. But, this forum is also bound by its rules regarding the standards those members are required to adhere to when posting and a subject like this seems to bring out some of those "demons" as well!!!!

I have no problem with this topic being discussed but lets try our best to keep the name calling and personal abuse of other posters out of it!! I know there is plenty of prior history between posters but using abuse as part of a post first of all is against the rules of the forum and secondly diminishes greatly the points you are trying to make.

As for this subject, if you want to make claims regarding incidents etc, provide sources where you can to back up your points, if you don't or can't then others will refute them. Likewise, if you want to refute those claims, back it up with your own stats or sources!! This is not a court of Law, there is no burden of proof on anyone but the credibility of a post is greatly enhanced with facts, not supposition!!!

[Trusevich]

SCO - The default position is unproven. I don't have to prove that!

[St Charles Owl]

SCO - The default position is unproven. I don't have to prove that!

No you don't!!  As I said this is not a trial, no burden of proof on anyone!!  

But for me there is some truth to what 0762 is saying, its been reported widely enough to acknowledge that at least and it certainly is the most "aggressive" game that takes place in Scottish football and certainly attracts the most media attention as well, but i am not convinced that its the "armageddon" that 0762 alludes to with regards to Scottish football!!  

As an outsider to Scottish football, this is probably the only game I would pay much attention to let alone actually watch and for Sky that is the be all and end all of their position on it!!  Now if Aberdeen can keep their form and stay ahead of Celtic then that story rightly should get a lot of column inches in the media and that is a story that Scottish football should be able to sell, but historically the OF game is the only true saleable asset they have, that needs to change for the good of Scottish football but its not just the job of Celtic or Rangers to do that, the whole of Scottish football needs to be involved.

[0762]

Saint Charles Owl, I'd only add to the end of your thread - PLUS THE RELEVANT AUTHORITIES WHO HAVE A DUTY OF CARE to ensure the game in Scotland is nurtured properly and protected in the most robust way possible if and when the requisite attention is required to do it!

[HerefordBull]

Well said SCO.  

0762 is also correct in that change for Scottish Football has to also come from the top. Celtic and The Rangers are certainly not going to complain over their column inches and so it is not down to them or their support to change.....why would they want to.  

I doubt things will change as the SFA seem blinkered to the fact that Scottish Football is a poor product and seem to think that by showing 4 Celtic v The Rangers each year to the World then all is rosy. As years go by it becomes a vicious circle and less likely that the game North of the border will ever recover. Clubs end up so far distant from the big 2 that a team / s cannot compete over a season.

Aberdeen have made a good start to the campaign this year but cracks are just starting to show and I doubt they will be anywhere near Celtic by the end of the season. Any of their good players are likely to be approached by Celtic or The Rangers in the New Year and then they are back to square 1. Dundee United lose 3 of their best players to Celtic and look at them now.
How many Championship games are on the TV this year......many, of course involving The Rangers......what do you think will happen next year as they get their expected promotion.......all that money goes towards showing their Premiership games and the exposure and revenue that these smaller clubs get dwindles away.    

As SCO says the only saleable product to the rest of the World is Celtic v The Rangers and although the passion will still be there when they meet again the quality these sides had at one time isn't.

Even Exeter City in the fourth tier of English football get gates on a par with Scottish Premier Clubs except Celtic, Aberdeen and Hearts. That must be a sad indictment of the game up here. The other week I went to Anfield before continuing up for the Aberdeen game last Wednesday.....the services after, all the way North was full of Scots who had been supporting Liverpool on the way back North of the border. They obviously can see a better product by driving 3 to 4 hours to England........sad but true.  

As has been said it is not down to Celtic or The Rangers to change but the authorities to take their heads out the sand and use their eyes to see what is happening......but I doubt they will.

How sad.  

[St Charles Owl]

Saint Charles Owl, I'd only add to the end of your thread - PLUS THE RELEVANT AUTHORITIES WHO HAVE A DUTY OF CARE to ensure the game in Scotland is nurtured properly and protected in the most robust way possible if and when the requisite attention is required to do it!

Yes, absolutely correct, if there are incidents like you describe then those are a matter of social responsibility by the authorities.  I am reminded of the days back in the 70s and 80s when I used to follow Wednesday to matches all over the country and even though I never wanted to get involved in any trouble, simply being there as an away football fan inevitably meant you ended up in the middle of it.  It took a lot of police, some heavy handed tactics and Government legislation to start the process of ridding English football of the hooligan element but above all else it took a lot of time after these things were implemented to actually see it diminish.  The Hillsborough disaster and the introduction of all seater stadia also were part of the reason it disappeared, but it took years to achieve it.  Of course it hasn't gone fully away, but you rarely see it in the ground anymore, and therefore it is not happening in front of TV cameras!!

You mentioned the incidents on a Saturday night after a game or incidents away from the match itself and this is where the authorities have to get involved because I am a firm believer that this is something that football can do very little about, nor can football take much blame for it either.  Football by nature is tribal, add in the historical religious aspect of the OF (and other clubs in Scotland) and it goes to a whole different social level to what we had in England!!  We never had to deal with the under current of sectarian driven violence, we just had to deal with the caveman tribal aspect so I do not expect a quick fix to any of this.  

Football generally does not breed hooligans, but it does attract them, sometimes in their droves, but the first step for me is authorities recognising that these are not football hooligans but hooligans at football, and then deal with them as we would any hooligan in our society.  No longer should football be used as the vehicle for these idiots to hide behind or use as an excuse for their behaviour, they are thugs whoever they claim to support!!!

[HerefordBull]

Saint Charles Owl, I'd only add to the end of your thread - PLUS THE RELEVANT AUTHORITIES WHO HAVE A DUTY OF CARE to ensure the game in Scotland is nurtured properly and protected in the most robust way possible if and when the requisite attention is required to do it!

Yes, absolutely correct, if there are incidents like you describe then those are a matter of social responsibility by the authorities.  I am reminded of the days back in the 70s and 80s when I used to follow Wednesday to matches all over the country and even though I never wanted to get involved in any trouble, simply being there as an away football fan inevitably meant you ended up in the middle of it.  It took a lot of police, some heavy handed tactics and Government legislation to start the process of ridding English football of the hooligan element but above all else it took a lot of time after these things were implemented to actually see it diminish.  The Hillsborough disaster and the introduction of all seater stadia also were part of the reason it disappeared, but it took years to achieve it.  Of course it hasn't gone fully away, but you rarely see it in the ground anymore, and therefore it is not happening in front of TV cameras!!

You mentioned the incidents on a Saturday night after a game or incidents away from the match itself and this is where the authorities have to get involved because I am a firm believer that this is something that football can do very little about, nor can football take much blame for it either.  Football by nature is tribal, add in the historical religious aspect of the OF (and other clubs in Scotland) and it goes to a whole different social level to what we had in England!!  We never had to deal with the under current of sectarian driven violence, we just had to deal with the caveman tribal aspect so I do not expect a quick fix to any of this.  

Football generally does not breed hooligans, but it does attract them, sometimes in their droves, but the first step for me is authorities recognising that these are not football hooligans but hooligans at football, and then deal with them as we would any hooligan in our society.  No longer should football be used as the vehicle for these idiots to hide behind or use as an excuse for their behaviour, they are thugs whoever they claim to support!!!

Quite correct SCO. I used to go to the Villa each week in the times you mentioned and there was trouble to be seen most weeks usually in those days in the old Witton Lane end where the away fans were. It was part and parcel of the game in those days. Fortunately incidents inside grounds rarely happen now but that doesn't mean it has gone away.

Big games certainly attracts the neds and you only have to look at the support when Hibs meet Hearts in Edinburgh.

Incidently I remember being ejected from the Holte End in those times against Sheffield Wednesday ....still don't know what I did    hope you weren't there 

[St Charles Owl]

Been to Villa Park a few times but the only time I was on the Holte End was an FA Cup semi v Everton in 1986, so unlikely to be my fault!!! I was there the day we beat Villa to relegate them, that was a fun day out!!!

[HerefordBull]

Not for Villa SCO