[BaggieSteve]

It's a pity Woy has already gone to Watford. I think he would have been perfect for us until the end of the season - admittedly not exciting but turns out incredibly well organised teams and is an excellent tactician, plus the fact he plays the player in their correct positions

---

Oh dear.
2 consecutive defeats to "very ordinary" teams in a week, on the back of a dismal run.
Yup, time to call time.

I can't see how he can survive this. Although we all want decent football, he had to get a result today, even if scruffy. Couldn't even manage a scruffy draw.

[Salopbaggie]

Well that was disgraceful from both the teams and the fans! The team, no point commenting, just pathetic, our local non-league team would have give them a run for their money. That is not an excuse for the mindless morons amongst the fans though, throwing seats and flares onto the pitch does not make you a fan, it just makes you a brainless football hooligan who belongs in the 1980's. I never thought I would live to see the day when Millwall fans behave better than ours.

[Baggiebob(BBB)]

Can't imagine what the changing room are chatting about Any thoughts?
Carroll must have until he receives his cheque, wished he stayed at home.

[Mosestheballwinner]

Val says he is a fighter well personally I read into his comments on the BBC that he’s out on his feet. I think he knows he’s gone.

[silverbaggie]

The Baggies came in for a lot of criticism on Sky Sports hosted by Jeff Stelling.
Even they stated that our brand of football was absolute rubbish and that a change of Manager and players was now necessary.

[BaggieSteve]

The Baggies came in for a lot of criticism on Sky Sports hosted by Jeff Stelling.
Even they stated that our brand of football was absolute rubbish and that a change of Manager and players was now necessary. 

I really like the guy and would like him to continue. But, to do that, he needs to recognise we have to vary our style of play and he needs to drop his stubborn approach to the thought of that. We are devoid of creativity in midfield and incredibly predictable. Sadly, I fear he’s unable to break out of that mindset so there’s only one likely outcome

[baggietrousers]

I really like the guy as well and would love him to stay. But sadly he's going, the writing was on the wall when they sacked Phil Thompson, Matt Le Tissier, and Charlie Nicholas.
(We are talking about Stelling I take it)

[BaggieSteve]

I really like the guy as well and would love him to stay. But sadly he's going, the writing was on the wall when they sacked Phil Thompson,  Matt Le Tissier, and Charlie Nicholas. 
(We are talking about Stelling I take it)

P love Jeff Stelling

[Slick_Footwork]

Given some of the tepid stuff that was served up last term, Val's "up and at em" attitude was quite refreshing early on.

I know that's why I was reluctant to be overly critical of him earlier, despite the football being unattractive from day one.

I liked his demeanour and attitude. He carried himself with a purpose. It seemed like he cared, which we had missed.

And because of that, like Steve, I hoped we would see an evolution of his style...

I hoped the hoofball was just his idea of getting the best out of a limited squad, rather than his ideology.

But we've been terrible for 3 months since losing to Stoke on October 1st...

The 3-0 home wins against Bristol City and Peterborough papered over the cracks. But they were sandwiched between lots of really poor results and every other win since then has been lucky.

That's a long run of terrible performances and has given Ismael ample time to try something else. However, despite the lack of results he's persisted with the hoofball. Because of this, I've come to the conclusion that it must be his ideology after all.

We still have some players who under Bilic and Allardyce actually passed to each other. I'm convinced Ismael tells the players to pump the ball forward first time and not put their foot on it.

There are patches in our games which resemble Sunday league. The ball is like a hot potato.

Ismael also comes across as incredibly stubborn, which I think is a severely limiting trait for a manager.

Even when we're losing he simply will not change this formation...

Not even for the last 10 minutes of games when we're chasing a result or when he has to play square pegs in round holes...

I don't understand what his philosophy is either.

He promotes bombarding the box from set plays, yet drops Ajayi who was the top scoring defender in the country the year we were promoted. His replacement, Kipre, has zero aerial presence.

He also makes bizarre decisions, like dropping Matt Clarke for the Preston game and playing Connor Townsend in the back 3, despite us keeping a clean sheet and winning 3-0 with Clarke playing in the previous game. He's done the same in other games too, like dropping Gardner-Hickman after consecutive man of the match performances.

He plays with 3 wingers up front yet just feeds them with aimless 1st time high balls.

In the games when he has played with a target man, we don't put crosses in because our wingers are too narrow and inverted, while the wing backs aren't the type to bomb down the line. I've never been a Darnel Furlong fan and honestly have no idea how he's playing at this level, but he was better going forward in a 4 under Bilic than he is in the wing back role. How does that happen?

Really feel sorry for the likes of Grady or Snodders who actually try to play...

I think the Millwall match was last chance saloon for Ismael after that woeful Preston loss at home. With his job on the line, I was expecting him to make radical changes, especially if we went behind. In fact, we were served up the same old formula. Again, he didn't change anything despite the fact Millwall were all over us and it was clear at 0-0 their goal was coming. It was reminiscent of the Stoke performance back in October, you could see they were going to score but rather than make a change to stem the tide we just continued with the same old same old until their goal inevitable came. After their goal came, his idea of changing the game was performing the same 'like for like' subs that we've seen all season; win, lose or draw.

It's like his brain is closed to anything expect chopping and changing the forwards...

The players now look completely abject and IMO stopped trying the last 2 games.

Adam Reach was lucky not to get sent off in the dying embers against Preston for hacking down Maguire. Unfortunately that ill discipline was the only real "passion" I've seen in those games. Apart from Livermore's headless chicken, hack everything that moves style of play. For all his limitations as a "footballer" at least Livermore tries come what may. However he probably shouldn't be playing...

So I really can't see how Ismael can still be in a job after Monday.

If he is, I'd love for him to wake up and smell the coffee because he has got good traits. But I think seeing a pig fly past is more likely.

And therefore every game that passes is just reducing our chances of making the playoffs...

We've seen other managers sacked in the recent past for their stubbornness. Tony Mowbray and Slavan Bilic for their reluctance to put a stopper in the middle of the park, making us a soft touch. Darren Moore for his reluctance to stop playing out from the back, costing us a lot of giveaway goals. All 3 had a better brand of football than Ismael. At least for their limitations, these guys served up entertainment. I think we have to draw the line with someone stubborn who doesn't entertain.

If I take Ismael's refreshing likeability out of it, I actually think his style and management is worse than Tony Pulis. At least with Pulis we really come out of the gates flying at home and went for teams. There was an identity. I really don't see anything in our current team.

[BaggieSteve]

Given some of the tepid stuff that was served up last term, Val's "up and at em" attitude was quite refreshing early on.

I know that's why I was reluctant to be overly critical of him earlier, despite the football being unattractive from day one.

I liked his demeanour and attitude. He carried himself with a purpose. It seemed like he cared, which we had missed.

And because of that, like Steve, I hoped we would see an evolution of his style...

I hoped the hoofball was just his idea of getting the best out of a limited squad, rather than his ideology.

But we've been terrible for 3 months since losing to Stoke on October 1st...

The 3-0 home wins against Bristol City and Peterborough papered over the cracks. But they were sandwiched between lots of really poor results and every other win since then has been lucky.

That's a long run of terrible performances and has given Ismael ample time to try something else. However, despite the lack of results he's persisted with the hoofball. Because of this, I've come to the conclusion that it must be his ideology after all.

We still have some players who under Bilic and Allardyce actually passed to each other. I'm convinced Ismael tells the players to pump the ball forward first time and not put their foot on it.

There are patches in our games which resemble Sunday league. The ball is like a hot potato.

Ismael also comes across as incredibly stubborn, which I think is a severely limiting trait for a manager.

Even when we're losing he simply will not change this formation...

Not even for the last 10 minutes of games when we're chasing a result or when he has to play square pegs in round holes...

I don't understand what his philosophy is either.

He promotes bombarding the box from set plays, yet drops Ajayi who was the top scoring defender in the country the year we were promoted. His replacement, Kipre, has zero aerial presence.

He also makes bizarre decisions, like dropping Matt Clarke for the Preston game and playing Connor Townsend in the back 3, despite us keeping a clean sheet and winning 3-0 with Clarke playing in the previous game. He's done the same in other games too, like dropping Gardner-Hickman after consecutive man of the match performances.

He plays with 3 wingers up front yet just feeds them with aimless 1st time high balls.

In the games when he has played with a target man, we don't put crosses in because our wingers are too narrow and inverted, while the wing backs aren't the type to bomb down the line. I've never been a Darnel Furlong fan and honestly have no idea how he's playing at this level, but he was better going forward in a 4 under Bilic than he is in the wing back role. How does that happen?

Really feel sorry for the likes of Grady or Snodders who actually try to play...

I think the Millwall match was last chance saloon for Ismael after that woeful Preston loss at home. With his job on the line, I was expecting him to make radical changes, especially if we went behind. In fact, we were served up the same old formula. Again, he didn't change anything despite the fact Millwall were all over us and it was clear at 0-0 their goal was coming. It was reminiscent of the Stoke performance back in October, you could see they were going to score but rather than make a change to stem the tide we just continued with the same old same old until their goal inevitable came. After their goal came, his idea of changing the game was performing the same 'like for like' subs that we've seen all season; win, lose or draw.

It's like his brain is closed to anything expect chopping and changing the forwards...

The players now look completely abject and IMO stopped trying the last 2 games.

Adam Reach was lucky not to get sent off in the dying embers against Preston for hacking down Maguire. Unfortunately that ill discipline was the only real "passion" I've seen in those games. Apart from Livermore's headless chicken, hack everything that moves style of play. For all his limitations as a "footballer" at least Livermore tries come what may. However he probably shouldn't be playing...

So I really can't see how Ismael can still be in a job after Monday.

If he is, I'd love for him to wake up and smell the coffee because he has got good traits. But I think seeing a pig fly past is more likely.

And therefore every game that passes is just reducing our chances of making the playoffs...

We've seen other managers sacked in the recent past for their stubbornness. Tony Mowbray and Slavan Bilic for their reluctance to put a stopper in the middle of the park, making us a soft touch. Darren Moore for his reluctance to stop playing out from the back, costing us a lot of giveaway goals. All 3 had a better brand of football than Ismael. At least for their limitations, these guys served up entertainment. I think we have to draw the line with someone stubborn who doesn't entertain.

If I take Ismael's refreshing likeability out of it, I actually think his style and management is worse than Tony Pulis. At least with Pulis we really come out of the gates flying at home and went for teams. There was an identity. I really don't see anything in our current team.

Slick, I think your assessment is spot on. There have been some managers in recent years whose dismissal hasn’t in the least bothered me but this one will. However, as you rightly say, it’s impossible to see any change in his approach to how we play. I’m not sure if it’s stubbornness, naivety or inexperience, as he is a relatively new manager, certainly at this level. Sometimes we stick with what we know has worked (at Barnsley) for fear that trying something new might fail, even though the “what we know” is clearly not working.

At least under Bilic and certainly under Mowbray, the football in the Championship was dynamic and good to watch; it was the EPL that found them out. What we are seeing now is dreadful and makes any thought of how we might perform in the Prem absolutely laughable.

If he does go, however, we then face the situation of a placement and I can’t think of anyone both available and desirable. Plenty available but none you’d want probably. Would we ask Jimmy Morrison and Chris Brunt to take over for the rest of the season, as we did with Big Dave. Im sure the football would improve but not sure we’d make the playoffs- financially difficult but maybe not a bad thing for the medium term. We may see some of the young talent get more game time under Jimmy and Brunty and, let’s be honest, that’s probably our future if the owner is not going to invest.

I really hope things change under Val but I suspect he won’t get the chance to do that; it would have happened by now if he was motivated to do it