[SaltergateBorn]

That`s a fair point about AFC Mansfield; the off-shoot doesn`t seem to be doing the Stags any harm at the moment, does it.

Having said that, I really don`t think that either Mansfield or Chesterfield are big enough towns and have big enough catchment areas to support 2 clubs of any meaningful size; certainly clubs with EFL potential. (Even Bradford can`t - and I personally find that quite sad. I was always fond of the old Park Avenue and hoped that they would find their way back one day - and that`s a far bigger conurbation than Chesterfield.)

The point is - do you really see AFC Mansfield growing to be a much bigger club than they are now? If they do, I can only see it being to the detriment of the Stags. On the same basis, if a `Chesterfield Sunday Afternoon` or whatever was happy to stay at that level, supported by a few hundred of the disillusioned and disenchanted, that`s fine. If any group of people has the enthusiasm, the skills and the resources to establish a new club on that basis, then I genuinely wish them good luck. I don`t think it would ever get very far, though. Football fans on the whole tend to be very traditional in their support, I`ve always thought. I suspect that if - or should I say when - CFC`s fortunes improve a lot of the misdemeanours and incompetence of the last few years will probably be forgotten; just as they have in the past.

I might be wrong, though, and for any neutral with no emotional attachment to CFC I suppose an off-shoot club would be an interesting experiment.

[Dancingwilldoit]

For the sake of world peace and forgiveness how about Chesterfield and Mansfield fans join together in perfect harmony and form a new club. They could play at Pleasley or Doe Hill - Doe Hill Derangers has a bit of a nice ring to it.

Mansfield will be having to change its name soon in these days of political correctness so it might prove to be a good idea for them.
Locally it seems a Yorkshire bakery now cant make Gingerbread m*n and they are now gingerbread people. I cant think of anything that rhymes with Personfield.
Am sure a lot of Town fans will be able to suggest a lot of alternative suggestions along the lines of Scabland which actually, also has a bit of a nice ring about it.

[SaltergateBorn]

`Ave you been snortin` summat you shouldn`t `ave, Dancing?

An amalgamation of CFC and the Stags? Errrrm, yeah, that should work well.....perhaps.

[Devongone]

In this country we seem determined to make everything an either/or.

You support Bradford City. Going and watching Bradford Park Avenue is unthinkable. Are you a Wol or a Blunt?

A new Chesterfield would have to be out to destroy the old Chesterfield ..........? Why?

[SaltergateBorn]

It`s got nothing to do with this country per se, Dev, but everything to do with basic human instinct. Club rivalry that extends to mutual hatred can be just as vicious, if not more so, in other countries as it is here.

The fact is that homo sapiens is basically a tribal animal. Tribalism is hard-wired into our psyche and has been since the day we first climbed down from the trees and found out that it was more efficient to hunt as a group rather than as individuals. Very shortly after that, we discovered that we stood more chance of hanging on to what we`d killed if we stuck together to defend it from another tribe who`d decided that they stood more chance of pinching it off us if they attacked us as a group rather than as individuals.......if that makes any sort of sense. Ever since then, we`ve had an innate need to feel ourselves part of a collective `we`; and for there to be a collective ` we` there has to be a collective `they`. In other words, an enemy.

Football rivalry is just one manifestation of this basic human trait, but there are quite a few others. In fact, to my way of thinking most of the intolerance and bigotry in the world has the same origin. Whether it`s racial, ethnic, religious, sexist, ageist or any other -ist you care to name, they all have the same root. (And it`s also very prevalent and very obvious in some parts of the animal kingdom - particularly the primates that we have so much in common with.) We need there to be an `us` and we need there to be a `them`to fight against and to either attack them or to defend ourselves against them.

Generally, the rivalry between any groups (tribes) is greatest and fiercest when they are competing for the same territory and/or the same resources, which means they come into contact most often. In the context of football that`s why the rivalry is usually fiercest between clubs in the same city or in neighbouring towns. Any football follower feels the basic need to attach his or her self to one of the tribes, which means that the members of the other(s) round about must immediately become their enemies. Even if, in an extreme case, they are related by blood.

All very deep stuff this, I know, and it`s only my opinion. However, I did once read an extract from`The Naked Ape` by Desmond Morris and I seem to remember that he put forward a very similar theory - and he was far more qualified on the subject than I am.

[spireitematt]

I think Dev has a point. Creating a new team and having it affiliated with Chesterfield could work because we could use it as a feeder club and bring through players into the Chesterfield first team and any first teamers or youth players which need match time could be loaned out to the feeder club. Although the feeder club would need to play in a competitive league like the same as Staveley's.

[SaltergateBorn]

In principle, Matt, I agree entirely. In practice, though, I have 2 reservations;

1. There would inevitably be both setting up and running costs. Where`s the money going to come from?
2. I`m sure one of the existing local junior teams wouldn`t be averse to being `adopted` on that basis. There would have to be a financial consideration no doubt (so question 1 still applies) but no setting up costs. Why not use one of them?

An interesting idea, though, and I`m surprised more bigger clubs don`t do it.

[Devongone]

The club would have to be founded by those currently dissatisfied with Chesterfield ....... It would take a lot of hard work and fund raising. Ideally they'd find one or two generous backers to help the club launch, but a new club would find itself at a pretty low level ....... so the original outlay might be less wearing than the effort required to keep raising money as the club began to climb the pyramid. It is very much a long-term commitment and that's where the rightly upset Bob's Boarders would probably be found wanting IMO.

Why do I think a new club would not necessarily be bad for the old one? Personal experience. When Polytechnics existed in this country I worked for their central application system - PCAS, which was located (a ground share?) in the same building as the much bigger UCCA - the university application system. UCCA was big, slow, with the turning circle of a Queen Mary and very bureaucratic. Little PCAS had a flatter organisational structure, was young, thrusting and open to change. Eventually the two combined and it was assumed UCAS was just UCCA taking over. In fact PCAS radically changed the old UCCA approaches to everything, pointless rules disappeared over night, the organisation became faster, friendlier more responsive and customer focused. Video kills the radio star ..........

Yes I have The Naked Ape and The Human Zoo on the shelves behind me SGB. And I don't think we are much more than chimps in suits, EXCEPT we have an awareness of ourselves that they lack - otherwise you would not be able to cite Desmond Morris, you'd have been looking round for a large stick to throw. We don't NEED to be prey to our baser instincts. We can make great acts of self-sacrifice as well as punch a Stags fans outside the Winding Wheel. And for years the new club wouldn't be a rival to Chesterfield, so by the time it reached that status its identity and the way the town viewed it would be fully formed in any case.

The new club might eventually submerge itself into Chesterfield and be lost. It might simply stay small scale and win the East Midlands League and become a feeder for Chesterfield. It might watch Chesterfield implode and whilst the town is mourning the loss of its club, expand to take its place in everyone's heart. OR the two clubs might come together and to everyone's surprise the good things about the newer, smaller former rival might change its dire, bigger partner forever.

Desmond Morris is still alive, still working into his nineties and producing surrealist paintings when we are tucked up in bed at night. A hero!

[SaltergateBorn]

That must be a lovely world that you live in, Dev. I wish I lived there.

In a Utopian world, the idea that a new club born out of the anger and disillusionment of a few of the followers of CFC could co-exist with it in some sort of symbiotic relationship is a lovely, heartwarming idea but I`m afraid it just doesn`t happen. In this country we vrtually have a local civil war if two clubs in the same city suggest just ground-sharing - which would be a glaringly sensible thing to do in a lot of cases, if only on economic grounds. I remember the furore a few years ago when Robert Maxwell wanted to merge Reading and Oxford, I think it was, into a new club. (Thames Valley Royals, I think he wanted to call it.) There was nearly blood on the streets. Off the top of my head the only case I can think of where it did work, and then only briefly, was Rushden & Diamonds - and that was because it was the brainchild of a multi-millionaire who had the financial muscle and the drive to see it through. What`s more, it didn`t come into being in the atmosphere of negativity that we have at the moment. There may be a few others, but I can`t think of any.

I really don`t think that the analogy between your experience at UCCA/PCAS and the merger of 2 football clubs is a fair one. Yours was based on economics and/or logistics, but I have to suggest that the allegiances of football fans are slightly more primal than you would find in academia. For example, let`s all ask ourselves 2 very straightforward questions;

1 How many times in the course of our lives have we changed employer / occupation?
2 How many times have we changed our football allegiance?

In my case, the answers are

1 Several
2 Never

and I suspect that most people would give the same answers, certainly to no 2.

I share your views on Desmond Morris. He`s been a hero of mine as well ever since he made the comment, back in the days when hooliganism was a far bigger problem than it is now, that "I went to watch a fight and a football match broke out in the crowd." Brilliant.

I also agree with you that we don`t NEED to be prey to our base instincts but the sad fact is that we all ARE, to a lesser or greater degree. The fact that we`ve evolved to a level where we can rationalise our instincts and, helped by education, identify them for what they are and suppress them doesn`t mean that they aren`t still there - as Dion Dublin has just found out, to my embarrassment. We can`t help it; as I said, it`s hard-wired into us. I openly admit that I have irrational prejudices and I`m sure that everybody does.

Sorry; I`ve gone on far too long. I`ll be forgetting to organise my ticket for tomorrow.

[Dancingwilldoit]

Well done the dick head who put Chesterfield back on the map again for the wrong reasons. We were slowly disappearing without trace and bang some scum bag puts us back in the limelight.
Desmond Morris used to introduce "Zoo Time" many many years ago.