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12-07-2018, 20:40
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2018, 20:41 by Slick_Footwork.)
Quote:You make some good points,and I agree southgate was to blame for England's defeat. But I take issue with the "with the players we have we should've beaten Croatia".
Once the Croatian midfield sparked, the English players didn't have the quality to truly compete with them. That's why those players are worth a fortune and play for the likes of Barcelona and Real Madrid and in the second half the gulf in class really showed.
Also going by modric's comments today,the English pundits and media really pissed them off with their dismissive attitude towards them.
England beat no team in the WC that was higher ranked than them in the competition. This view that you should be beating Croatia doesn't hold any water.
I agree that Modric and Rakitic are a step above what we have individually, but I don't believe the rest of the team are up to much. Vrsaljko is a good full back, but then we have some really good full backs too. Mandzukic is a shadow of his former self. Perisic and Rebic are workmanlike, while the defence, Vrsaljko aside, is slow and error prone.
And as we've seen in previous games, where Croatia were fortunate to make it to penalties with both Denmark and Russia, it's about combating the midfielders.
The problem is, unlike Russia and Denmark, we failed to combat Modric and Rakitic.
Henderson has the athleticism to get in and around even the most quality of midfielders, as we've seen for Liverpool this season. He thrives on playing up and at them, in your face, high intensity football. But he needs someone with him.
However Southgate's tactics were naive at best. He decided to try and outplay Croatia, leaving Henderson in midfield on his own against these 2. When our initial tempo ran out of steam, they ran the show. Which was conceivable, with Henderson in there on his own.
This type of game was crying out for someone in there with Henderson to stop these 2 from dictating play. As much as I hate to say it, because he's not the best 'footballer', this is the exact reason why Southgate should've convinced Milner to go to the world cup. Together these 2 have stifled some top European midfielders this season. Especially when you decide to go into the 'see it out' zone.
At the very least, when it's obvious Croatia are starting to control the game, Southgate surely needs to put someone in midfield with Henderson. Despite the fact we can all see the goal coming, we continue with the same open, naive style.
So yes, I believe we had the players to beat them, with better tactics. Croatia didn't even top their qualification group for the tournament.
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Good post, Slick, you make some interesting points.
At my level of watching football - which is far less analytical than yours, or Josh's, I saw a game slowly slipping away because their midfield simply took over.
My simple view was that Ali (who l like, by the way) wasn't even in the game as a attacker, and he should've been replaced by Lofty Cheekhouse shortly after half time, when they started to dominate.
If the writing's on the wall you've gotta read it!
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12-07-2018, 23:24
(This post was last modified: 12-07-2018, 23:26 by WBA-Josh.)
I think the problem in the second half was Modric and Rakitic were being given to much space. In the first half they both played much deeper than you’d expect. They were playing as the two centre midfielders in the system but spent more time closer to their defence than to the forwards. That was because of England’s pressing.
In the second half England started to sit deep and that afforded Modric and Rakitic more space to work in and so they started to play higher up with Rakitic especially playing closer to Perisic and Mandzukic. What Southgate needed to do in my opinion was bring off Alli and put on Loftus-Cheek and flip the midfield triangle. He should have put Loftus-Cheek alongside Henderson to sit in front of the three centre backs and have them move and backwards depending on the balls position and try to limit the space for Rakitic and Modric to play in. Then Lingard onto the right and Sterling back on the left to double up with the wing backs defensively. That would have meant a 541 out of possession but then Lingard and Sterling can carry the ball away from danger and lead counter-attacks.
Instead Southgate kept both Alli and Lingard as the centre midfielders and put Dier on for Henderson and the midfield problem just got worse.
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(12-07-2018, 20:40)Slick_Footwork Wrote: Quote:You make some good points,and I agree southgate was to blame for England's defeat. But I take issue with the "with the players we have we should've beaten Croatia".
Once the Croatian midfield sparked, the English players didn't have the quality to truly compete with them. That's why those players are worth a fortune and play for the likes of Barcelona and Real Madrid and in the second half the gulf in class really showed.
Also going by modric's comments today,the English pundits and media really pissed them off with their dismissive attitude towards them.
England beat no team in the WC that was higher ranked than them in the competition. This view that you should be beating Croatia doesn't hold any water.
I agree that Modric and Rakitic are a step above what we have individually, but I don't believe the rest of the team are up to much. Vrsaljko is a good full back, but then we have some really good full backs too. Mandzukic is a shadow of his former self. Perisic and Rebic are workmanlike, while the defence, Vrsaljko aside, is slow and error prone.
And as we've seen in previous games, where Croatia were fortunate to make it to penalties with both Denmark and Russia, it's about combating the midfielders.
The problem is, unlike Russia and Denmark, we failed to combat Modric and Rakitic.
Henderson has the athleticism to get in and around even the most quality of midfielders, as we've seen for Liverpool this season. He thrives on playing up and at them, in your face, high intensity football. But he needs someone with him.
However Southgate's tactics were naive at best. He decided to try and outplay Croatia, leaving Henderson in midfield on his own against these 2. When our initial tempo ran out of steam, they ran the show. Which was conceivable, with Henderson in there on his own.
This type of game was crying out for someone in there with Henderson to stop these 2 from dictating play. As much as I hate to say it, because he's not the best 'footballer', this is the exact reason why Southgate should've convinced Milner to go to the world cup. Together these 2 have stifled some top European midfielders this season. Especially when you decide to go into the 'see it out' zone.
At the very least, when it's obvious Croatia are starting to control the game, Southgate surely needs to put someone in midfield with Henderson. Despite the fact we can all see the goal coming, we continue with the same open, naive style.
So yes, I believe we had the players to beat them, with better tactics. Croatia didn't even top their qualification group for the tournament.
Only because they lost one game to iceland, their results in the group were solid enough.
Croatia's MF and AT was frightening! I think you are doing them a disservice. Rakitic - Barca; Modric - Real: Perisic - Inter; Brozovic - Inter; Mandzukic - Juve- they are all technically better than the english players. Big athletic players like henderson don't win you tournaments. Neither him or alli are capable of setting the tempo in a game like that.
To be honest it was all there in the Tunisia match. Woefully profligate in front of goal, utterly reliant on set pieces and a defence that was one miskick away from meltdown. Be grateful you never came up against france as they would have tore you a new one.
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14-07-2018, 01:09
(This post was last modified: 14-07-2018, 01:11 by 4evaabaggie.)
Hibeejim21, your dead right nice tippy tippy passing football, forward 5 yards, sideways, backwards, forwards five yards repeat, run at defence until a.sight of goal, stop, cold sweat, stop pass sideways or backwards, if that fails, fall over, protest .....
No penetration, no courage to have a go and shoot ..... mainly goals from set plays .... make the keeper work from open play ..... attack attack attack ...
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I've got to squeeze this in at some time, HibeeJim (and I'm old enough to remember him):
How come Hibernian's Best Ever Player Joe Baker never even made the Scotland team? 
Start every day off with a smile and get it over with
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(14-07-2018, 01:09)4evaabaggie Wrote: Hibeejim21, your dead right nice tippy tippy passing football, forward 5 yards, sideways, backwards, forwards five yards repeat, run at defence until a.sight of goal, stop, cold sweat, stop pass sideways or backwards, if that fails, fall over, protest .....
No penetration, no courage to have a go and shoot ..... mainly goals from set plays .... make the keeper work from open play ..... attack attack attack ...
4eva, if there was 1 thing I would criticise this young team for - and we shouldn't forget that fact - it would be the seeming complete reluctance to shoot., to 'have a go's from a decent position. I think Sterling was by far the worst regarding this (not having a go at Sterling as I think he was generally very good and was our biggest threat going forward) but many, many times we chose to stop, pass square, have another touch, whatever, and the chance was gone.
The general confidence in possession was great - we need that mentality to spread to the final 20 metres of the pitch..... most fans would rather see a shot high or wide than a promising move ending up with no shot at all!
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14-07-2018, 13:06
(This post was last modified: 14-07-2018, 13:10 by Slick_Footwork.)
Quote:Only because they lost one game to iceland, their results in the group were solid enough.
Croatia's MF and AT was frightening! I think you are doing them a disservice. Rakitic - Barca; Modric - Real: Perisic - Inter; Brozovic - Inter; Mandzukic - Juve- they are all technically better than the english players. Big athletic players like henderson don't win you tournaments. Neither him or alli are capable of setting the tempo in a game like that.
To be honest it was all there in the Tunisia match. Woefully profligate in front of goal, utterly reliant on set pieces and a defence that was one miskick away from meltdown. Be grateful you never came up against france as they would have tore you a new one.
I'm one of these sad people that watches tons of football, so I'm completely aware of who the Croatian players are and who they play for.
But completely disagree that Brozovic and Mandzukic are top class. Mandzukic was a top class player, a few years ago. He's spent recent times playing his trade in a work man like wide midfield role, covering the full back. He looked very average in the entire tournament and let's face it, his goal was simply because Stones switched off. As for Brozovic, I've watched lots of him and always thought he was distinctly average. But it's all about opinions.
The reality is, we lost 2-1 with a side playing numerous square pegs in round holes and that was completely nonreactive to the changes in the game due to poor management. We didn't lose because we matched them up and they then played us off the park - we lost because we failed to match them up.
As far as 'being grateful for not making it to the final', what complete nonsense. By this notion, let's just quit watching football now. Do you do that if Hibs are in the semi of the cup and Celtic are awaiting in the final? Do you celebrate losing?
Any sane fan wants their team to go as far as they can and we've seen on numerous occasions how anyone can beat anyone else in a 1 off game. Hell, West Brom went to Man United away last year and won 1-0 when we couldn't buy a win and they were flying high.
Would France have beaten us? Probably. They have better players across the board. 'Tore us a new one'? Doubtful. Nobody seems capable of ripping anyone else apart in this tournament. I've watched all of France's games and the only game they have won by more than a goal was against Uruguay, which was a complete fluke. France struggled to beat Australia, needing a very disputed penalty and fluked their way past Peru. I'm not sure if you've been watching something else to suggest how great they are. I would've fancied them against us, like I do against Croatia, but seen nothing to suggest there are any full gone conclusions.
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14-07-2018, 15:35
(This post was last modified: 14-07-2018, 16:59 by WBA-Josh.)
Courtois
Alderwiereld - Kompany - Vertonghen
Meunier - Witsel - Tielemans - Chadli
De Bruyne - Hazard
Lukaku
Pickford
Jones - Stones - Maguire
Trippier - Loftus - Dier - Delph - Rose
Sterling - Kane
Chadli coming off with a hamstring problem. He walked off so it’s probably not a tear.
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