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Let’s Talk About Width…
#1
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Now im not quite in the ‘let’s sack Irvine’ club YET …but I have enquired about how to join.

I commented after Chelsea game that I still have patience with Irvine, but it will run thin if the results remain the same whilst the team remain the same!

I had written off the Chelsea game so the result was no biggy for me, Arsenal at home however was a different prospect.  Whist they are a good team, they are not the Arsenal of old and can be got at!  

Now I understand that like Chelsea, A.I. may have picked a team to contain Arsenal and hit them on a lucky break – like the Berahino offside chance.  But by doing that, you put the onus on the opposition to attack you from the off and more often than not, one of their many attacks works and they score.  As we saw yesterday.  

Because of this, I find it hard to comprehend the complete lack of creativity and width in our selection.  The performance yesterday has to be the most narrow I’ve ever seen Albion play and possibly the most narrow team in  premier league history !

The amount of times players had to come back inside the pitch as there was absolutely  nothing being offered out wide was embarrassing.  Our full backs were the only players offering anything out wide when they decided to push forward.  If this is what Irvine had in mind, then the likes of Gamboa must play!  I like Wisdom and think he has been one of our few decent consistent performers but he is not naturally as attack minded as Gamboa obviously.  But even with attack minded players on the pitch, they can still be compact, if coached and drilled properly, with the advantage of them being able to expand the game as and when required to do so.

This is not my main worry though.  My main worry is the constant selection of Chris Brunt (and Dorrans to a lesser extent).  I said in a separate thread at the start of the season that I genuinely don’t know what he offers us?  The only thing he ‘should’ offer is a good pass or good set piece delivery once in a while.  But like yesterday, if he isn’t giving us that, then he is giving us nothing.  He is pedestrian pace and he slows the play down at every opportunity so he can cope.  His is a casualty that the team are carrying for no reason.

Whist your cant knock his loyalty to the club, the bloke is an average championship player at best.  I ask you this specific question, if he wasn’t playing for West Brom, would he be a player that we would try and sign?  The answer is NO!!!!  

When Samaras came on, we actually had an inject of pace and some urgency for the first time in the game – apart from a heavily isolated Sessegnon.  How Varela and Blanco can be left out the side for this guy is beyond me!  

The only possible excuse A.I. has (and a few of you have already mentioned this In the match thread) is, if he is saving our attack minded wide players for the next 4 games.  If that is the case, and we pick up good results (anything less then 2 wins is not good enough) then it may have been worth it.  If that isn’t the case, then I will not only be joining the ‘let’s sack Irvine’ club, ill be chairing it and leading the recruitment drive!  

Would be interested to here your thoughts

Up the Baggies! 
We All Go Boing and drewks like this post
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#2
We need to try something different out wide because Dorrans isn't a winger and Brunt looks more like a centre midfielder all the time.
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#3
Thumb up Good post Danny.
I'm another who was prepared to give AI every chance, but I'm also converting to the 'Other Side'!
I think he DOES offer good organisation in a defensive way, but it seems that this is at the expense of ANY creativity. I totally agree that the deeper you sit and the more reliance you have on defence, the bigger the risk of at some stage letting one in. Actually even my CAT could see that, and I haven't even got a cat. Dodgy

There just HAS to be a Plan B.

I really think he's going to be under huge pressure if the next 4 games don't net us more than 7 or 8 points.
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#4
Personally, I wasn't happy when Irvine was given the job because I don't think the Premier League is a playground for experimenting with failed lower league managers. That said, I was over the disappointment by the time the season started and more than willing to give the guy a fair crack of the whip.

Since then though, he's made countless team selections that I don't agree with. So many, that I personally don't think the guy has a clue what he's doing.

As well as that, I said after the Everton game that we'd lost any pattern of play. There was no passing through the channels and we were launching hit and hope long balls time and time again. I've seen nothing since then to see any improvement.

Unless we play against Esteban Cambiasso every week, I can't see where the goals are coming from.

As for Brunt and Dorrans, they are two of Irvine's multiple selection mistakes IMO. Irvine's flat 4 in midfield is inflexible in modern day football, but if you are going to play it, you need wingers who are going to beat people. Neither of these players are wingers in that formation.

Dorrans IMO is a decent Championship player who is somehow still playing Premier League football despite being a shadow of the player he was 4 years ago. When we were doing half decent under Steve Clarke he wasn't anywhere near the team and rightly so. Now, millions of pounds and an international, world cup scoring winger later, he's still playing, out of position, for me the blame has to go with the manager.

Brunt would be more effective coming from the right or centre, where he can play the reverse balls or use his range of passing. There is no way he's a winger in a flat 4. For starters, in Sess and Saido, we have 2 small strikers anyway, so surely we need Brunt in a position to thread balls through rather than cross it anyway, not that I can remember him putting in a good cross from open play this season. Like Dorrans, Brunt was only a squad player when we were doing decent.

I firmly believe that Irvine's negative style means that these 2 are picked because they are better defenders than the alternative (Sess / Saido on wing, Samaras, Varela). However, what Irvine doesn't realise is to win matches, you have to score goals. We've conceeded 2 goals at home to Sunderland, Man Utd, Palace, Everton and Newcastle with Irvine's defence minded tactics, so maybe it's time for him to strap a set on and actually play some offensive players.
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#5
Who would everyone play on the wing?

5 main other options

Sess wide: no, much better centrally and Irvine wouldn't start him there

Samaras: not seen much but worth a try

Varela: great record but surely not even making the bench for a reason ( what's happened with injuries? so unclear)

Blanco: seemed ok in his bits maybe worthwhile.

Gamboa: doesn't see himself as a winger and doesn't take his man on enough imo but good delivery and pace.

So I'd probably have Samaras left and Varela on the right (can he play there?). Samaras has a decent chance of a start soon imo (since he has actually made the bench) but the other 4 look unlikely.
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#6
(30-11-2014, 16:19)drewks Wrote: Thumb up  Good post Danny.
I'm another who was prepared to give AI every chance, but I'm also converting to the 'Other Side'!
I think he DOES offer good organisation in a defensive way, but it seems that this is at the expense of ANY creativity. I totally agree that the deeper you sit and the more reliance you have on defence, the bigger the risk of at some stage letting one in. Actually even my CAT could see that, and I haven't even got a cat.  Dodgy

There just HAS to be a Plan B.

I really think he's going to be under huge pressure if the next 4 games don't net us more than 7 or 8 points.

I read a lot about a 'lack of plan B'. In my view, this is just not true as we saw plan B in the last 15 mins v's Arsenal and it didn't look too bad.
Our, or Irvine's, problem is plan A.

What he needs to do is simply swap them round. Start with plan B and when have a good enough lead then bring in plan A to hold on.
In other words, plan A is actually plan B and plan B is really plan A.

We don't have a plan C yet as that would confuse things... Whistle
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#7
Sessegnon is better centrally as he can influence the match more.

Samaras is a tricky player for the opposition to deal with and is a good choice for our left side. He will also help out well defensively.

Varela is the best winger at the club and is a top quality player who can play both right and left.

Blanco is an attacking midfielder but is also good when played out wide either on the left or right. He has good pace to can run at players when needed.

Gamboa has never been a winger and shouldn't be used as one. He is best as an attacking right back.

For me it would be Blanco on the right. Varela on the left and Sessegnon in the hole. To make life difficult for the opposition, I would propose the 3 of them switching up their positions during the match. This will make us a fluid, interchanging attacking team.
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#8
(30-11-2014, 18:54)tidy Wrote:
(30-11-2014, 16:19)drewks Wrote: Thumb up  Good post Danny.
I'm another who was prepared to give AI every chance, but I'm also converting to the 'Other Side'!
I think he DOES offer good organisation in a defensive way, but it seems that this is at the expense of ANY creativity. I totally agree that the deeper you sit and the more reliance you have on defence, the bigger the risk of at some stage letting one in. Actually even my CAT could see that, and I haven't even got a cat.  Dodgy

There just HAS to be a Plan B.

I really think he's going to be under huge pressure if the next 4 games don't net us more than 7 or 8 points.

I read a lot about a 'lack of plan B'. In my view, this is just not true as we saw plan B in the last 15 mins v's Arsenal and it didn't look too bad.
Our, or Irvine's, problem is plan A.

What he needs to do is simply swap them round. Start with plan B and when have a good enough lead then bring in plan A to hold on.
In other words, plan A is actually plan B and plan B is really plan A.

We don't have a plan C yet as that would confuse things... Whistle

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
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#9
When JP gets to work on Monday and read his emails his head will be spinning,

Around 99% Of westbrom.com are mailing him about a certain Mr Irvine and his style of play,

Lets join em Thumb up

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Re: Alan Irvine
« Reply #4370 on: Today at 05:32:47 PM »
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Quote from: hardtobeat on Today at 04:41:37 PM
if i knew his e mail address i would!!

You have to email
enquiries@wbafc.co.uk

This is the general email address but the email definitely gets forwarded on to JP as I have received letters directly from him in the past
2x Premier League Champ 1x Championship Winner and World cup Winner
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#10
All good posts guys!

Tidy - very funny! Lol!

Josh - I agree with you with regard to your proposed selection.

As for Brunt, I just wouldn't have him in the side at all. The bloke is an above average championship player at most. And I reiterate my earlier question - If he wasn’t playing for us – would he be a player that we would try and sign??? I would be amazed if anyone says yes!?!

Irvine made a rod for his own back at the start of the season by naming him captain. By doing that, he effectively assured him of a place. I personally would have given it to Foster and let the 10 remaining outfield players battle for a starting spot. We needed a complete change at the start of this season and by maintaining Brunt as skipper, it sent out the wrong message in my opinion.

As for width, we were actually better when we had Jerome Thomas for goodness sake! Whatever you thought of him, he was a proper winger that offered genuine width and options out wide.

Irvine now has to swallow his pride and make some changes, 20,000 people can’t be wrong! If he doesn’t, it has to be bye, bye.
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