[drewks]

Interesting points being raised re TP.

It WOULD be interesting to see how much more inventive/positive we'd be if we played with TWO up front.....
...oh - hang on:
http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/891607062?-11200:789:3

[BaggieSteve]

Let's be honest with ourselves, despite all press and agent speculation linking us to some exciting young overseas, and occasionally domestic, talent, this transfer window will follow the others of recent years and provide us with a slew of completely uninspiring signings, ones that fit the Pulis mound of hard working, ageing, Premier League players who have either seen better days or are cheap because they've gone off the boil and couldn't score in a brothel. There will be no signings that will take your breath away or even excite you, just run of the mill journeymen, most likely from recently relegated clubs. The tactics next season will be the same as last season - defend, defend and then defend some more, cede all the possession going, pray that Fozzie plays a blinder and hope to nick a goal from a corner in the one attack we have late in the second half. Oh, and pay £30+ for the privilege of watching it. As long as Pulis is manager, this club I have supported since 1962 will play some of most boring, sterile football any of us can imagine, devoid of creativity or flair. Not losing and survival will be all that counts, some ambition. It doesn't have to be like this, clubs similar in size and stature to us make a better fist of it, have more belief, more courage. Who we sign and the efforts made to get them on board tell us a lot; right now clubs around us are being ambitious, are doing business. What do we do? We baulk at paying a reported £5milion for a young and, by all accounts, talented left back (a position we all agree we desperately need to fill), even though we have a £40million transfer kitty but will spend £12million on a non scoring, injury prone striker who cannot get into the starting line up of a club similar to ourselves. I know this is a very negative and I would dearly love to be proved wrong, at which point I will happily eat humble pie on this forum and admit my error, but right now I see nothing to convince me that this transfer window and next season will be any different to our recent history.

I'm not sure that Phillips and Chadli fit that mould, nor Livermore or Evans for that matter.

People seem to be forgetting the side that TP inherited, full of either aging or bog standard Premier League players. We scraped up by the skin of our teeth the season before he came and looked nailed on for relegation the season he arrived too. Clearly we have improved massively since his arrival.

Now I don't want to make it sound like I'm a big fan Pulis, because I'm not. I agree the football needs to be better, particularly away from home where we could play against the Hen and Chickens and go for a draw. However, the improvement is there to see, despite pathetic backing.

On the subject of pathetic backing last year -in 16-17 our net spend was less than £10m. Less than Sunderland, Burnley, Bournemouth, Watford and Hull. And significantly less than West Ham, Stoke, Palace and Middlesborough! Didn't see any of these sides playing particularly free flowing football either.

In fact, the only teams with a net spend lower than ours were Liverpool, Southampton and Swansea - the former two because of huge player sales.

It's clear to me that like his predecessors, Pulis hasn't been backed in comparison to our competition. Despite this, he gets slagged off left, right and centre by some fans. The reality is, in black and white, he's got us punching well above our weight in terms of league position to what he's been given to spend.

IMO it's time for the board to back him and then if we continue to play rubbish football, we're within our rights to slag him off. At the moment, when he's got us in mid table on a shoestring budget, it feels really harsh to see some of the criticism he gets.

Slick, much of what you write I don't disagree with and, just as you say you don't want to be seen as a big Pulis fan, well I'm not completely anti Pulis, despite how I may come across. I fully recognise the improvement he has brought to the club, particularly in the way we are organised, and also the stability that has ensued. My issue is that I believe we are entering a period of diminishing returns with TP; I honestly feel he has achieved all he can with the Albion and that we have got all the benefit from him that we will ever get. It is not in his DNA to play a different style of football, I think what we are seeing now and for the last two seasons is what we will see going forward and for as long as he is the manager. Just as people highlight Wenger's inability to recognise the need to defend, so I feel Pulis has the opposite problem. At some point, just staying in the PL cannot be enough, there also has to be some entertainment, some pleasure in watching the Albion, some excitement. However, the fear from the club's owners will be that changing the current approach and the manager will result in relegation, so we continue down the same path on the grounds that, in their eyes, this formula works. I personally believe this is a fallacy but, to date, history does not support my view. I was delighted when he signed Phillips and Chadli and, by and large, these have been successful for us. But he's also been responsible for Lambert, McManaman, Robson-Kanu, Chester, the completely wasted loan signings of Gnabry, Pritchard and Galloway and, although I like the guy, Rondon who couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. Evans was a brilliant signing but I have a less positive view on Livermore, who I feel is OK - next season, and the absence of Fletcher, may push him on. As you say, let's see what this transfer window brings and judge afterwards, I think you have more faith than me, Slick. Still, at least it looks like the Vile will be signing Terry, so some good news

[talkSAFT]

BaggieSteve, that's exactly my view. You sum it up well.

[BaggieSteve]

BaggieSteve, that's exactly my view. You sum it up well.

[Worldclassalbion]

BaggieSteve I agree 100%

[BaggieSteve]

BaggieSteve I agree 100%

[Slick_Footwork]

Slick, much of what you write I don't disagree with and, just as you say you don't want to be seen as a big Pulis fan, well I'm not completely anti Pulis, despite how I may come across. I fully recognise the improvement he has brought to the club, particularly in the way we are organised, and also the stability that has ensued. My issue is that I believe we are entering a period of diminishing returns with TP; I honestly feel he has achieved all he can with the Albion and that we have got all the benefit from him that we will ever get. It is not in his DNA to play a different style of football, I think what we are seeing now and for the last two seasons is what we will see going forward and for as long as he is the manager. Just as people highlight Wenger's inability to recognise the need to defend, so I feel Pulis has the opposite problem. At some point, just staying in the PL cannot be enough, there also has to be some entertainment, some pleasure in watching the Albion, some excitement. However, the fear from the club's owners will be that changing the current approach and the manager will result in relegation, so we continue down the same path on the grounds that, in their eyes, this formula works. I personally believe this is a fallacy but, to date, history does not support my view. I was delighted when he signed Phillips and Chadli and, by and large, these have been successful for us. But he's also been responsible for Lambert, McManaman, Robson-Kanu, Chester, the completely wasted loan signings of Gnabry, Pritchard and Galloway and, although I like the guy, Rondon who couldn't hit a cow's arse with a banjo. Evans was a brilliant signing but I have a less positive view on Livermore, who I feel is OK - next season, and the absence of Fletcher, may push him on. As you say, let's see what this transfer window brings and judge afterwards, I think you have more faith than me, Slick. Still, at least it looks like the Vile will be signing Terry, so some good news

I wouldn't say necessarily that I have more faith in Pulis, it's just that I don't have any faith in our board to back any manager if we did decide to make the change. Plus I'd like to him him given backing in line with other sides in this division before deciding outright that the football will remain dull.

I appreciate that we changed owners last season, but I've seen no change in tack at all - Janaury was another profit, with a striker sold and not replaced. Same old same old.

Based on TP's performance at Stoke with money, it could be fair to say that you will be right and we will only be a mid table side even if he was backed. I personally thought he became very stagnant there, after initially doing a fantastic job in taking them from the bottom of the Championship to 'stable' Prem side. But the evidence does suggest that with money, he hits a plateau.

I don't think that Stoke have really managed to beat that plateau without him mind you, I also still find them dull to watch.

But the cross side of that is, at Palace he used wingers and played some decent stuff. There's an argument that he plays with what he has at his disposal. Given we have McAuley and Dawson who are 2 of the best in the air in the league, maybe that is why we put so much emphasis on set play? Let's remember he inherited a midfield with players like Gardner, Yacob, Brunt and Chris Baird - which doesn't really give you enough pace to play any incisive, attacking football. Replacing all these players takes time.

From my point of view, I think he's done enough to deserve to be backed here (i'd like any manager backed, for that matter) and then we can judge him fairly.

From Pulis' statement after last season's window, it appeared that Chadli and Phillips were the players we really wanted. Robson Kanu and Nyom came in during the dying embers because we couldn't attract our main targets. HRK screamed of a signing to appease the fans - came in at the last minute despite being a bosman all summer.

We know he was after Sakho from Liverpool, Schneiderlin from Utd and William Carvalho from Lisbon who are all quality footballers in the right age. It just so happens that they chose to go elsewhere, maybe because of the stigma that we've developed as being 'tight arses' over the years; or more likely that we just didn't stump up the cash. I don't believe they turned down the club because of Pulis, after all, Sakho went to play under Allardyce! I think the reality is, we don't have the cash to stump up for players from the top sides.

I appreciate the Terry link was completely uninspiring, but last summer his oldest signing was Nyom at 29 and for next to nothing. We don't really know if the Terry link has legs or if it was just paper talk.

You might be 100% correct that he's taken us as far as he can, but I'd just like to see 1 window with real backing. Players like Chadli need other good passers to play with. At the moment, we're still over reliant on old heads who have been here for years. If TP is forced to scrat around for freebies or budget signings, as usual, I guess we can only expect players in their 30s.

[4evaabaggie]

Slick, very good post. A lot of teams are playing dull football in the PL because relegation is disastrous, ask the vile, the dingles, Leeds, Bolton the list goes on .......

We have up to yet never paid the big bucks having a tight wage structure, this may change if Jonny gets his 100k a week, that may open us up to signing bigger better players. In turn bringing better football.

Alternatively we could spend big, implode and disappear without a trace like we did in 1986. 16 years to get back ......

The top six are and will stay the top six ...... my views on why have been widely posted on here ...... a video ref might redress the balance .......
Everton are seventh and will probably stay there ........ spending big, most teams can't compete even with them.
The rest of the league will scrap and fight for the points to stay clear of the drop. Football will be uninspiring, dull and safety first ....... get used to it ...... whilst English football is being bankrolled by sky the status quo will not change.

Sad but true ........m

[BaggieMan]

Whilst I respect the views of both arguments, I have to say I am in the Baggiesteve camp on this one.

I believe there is currently an unfortunate apathy within the club that smacks of lack of ambition and penny pinching with Charlie Taylor being a classic example. How can Pulis and Co have consistently chased him for over a year and then back off when frightened by the tribunal or fee level expected by Leeds. Has he become a poor player in that year? Has he suffered a long term career threatening injury? No on both counts.

I was full of hope with the announcement that we would be investing heavily in this Window and that we would be completing our business early. I now believe that to be a ruse to boost season ticket sales and I for one fell for it along no doubt with many others. I also sadly now believe we will end up with aging cheap 'has beens' and that hope I held that we will display some ambition, in the same way as those teams around us, will be extinguished.

As for Pulis, all of you know that the Baggieman is certainly not a fan and never will be given his boring defensive style. I find it difficult to accept the argument put forward regarding his short spell at Palace. That was now years ago and it was a case of 'shit or bust' and the gamble paid off. Had he stayed with Palace you can bet your bottom dollar he would have reverted to his usual defend, defend, defend style with which he is now tainted.

I can now see nothing in the future for us other than flirting with relegation and at best, a bottom half finish. Both Pulis and the board have had several windows to invest in an exciting future but have not really grasped the metal apart from the odd good signing. The change of ownership was last year a convenient smoke-screen to cover our lack of ambition. This summer, there is no excuse and one would hope the club will once more launch an exciting buying policy and bring in quality players of the right age and skill to cement a top half finish.

I'm not holding my breath......

[Slick_Footwork]

Whilst I respect the views of both arguments, I have to say I am in the Baggiesteve camp on this one.

I believe there is currently an unfortunate apathy within the club that smacks of lack of ambition and penny pinching with Charlie Taylor being a classic example. How can Pulis and Co have consistently chased him for over a year and then back off when frightened by the tribunal or fee level expected by Leeds. Has he become a poor player in that year? Has he suffered a long term career threatening injury? No on both counts.

I was full of hope with the announcement that we would be investing heavily in this Window and that we would be completing our business early. I now believe that to be a ruse to boost season ticket sales and I for one fell for it along no doubt with many others. I also sadly now believe we will end up with aging cheap 'has beens' and that hope I held that we will display some ambition, in the same way as those teams around us, will be extinguished.

As for Pulis, all of you know that the Baggieman is certainly not a fan and never will be given his boring defensive style. I find it difficult to accept the argument put forward regarding his short spell at Palace. That was now years ago and it was a case of 'shit or bust' and the gamble paid off. Had he stayed with Palace you can bet your bottom dollar he would have reverted to his usual defend, defend, defend style with which he is now tainted.

I can now see nothing in the future for us other than flirting with relegation and at best, a bottom half finish. Both Pulis and the board have had several windows to invest in an exciting future but have not really grasped the metal apart from the odd good signing. The change of ownership was last year a convenient smoke-screen to cover our lack of ambition. This summer, there is no excuse and one would hope the club will once more launch an exciting buying policy and bring in quality players of the right age and skill to cement a top half finish.

I'm not holding my breath......

The question with Taylor though, do we know we were definitely after him and if so, is he our first choice? There's a lot of information get 'leaked' to newspapers by agents just to drum up interest in their client.

The lad is out of contract, so it's an interesting one. Maybe we saw him as a squad player and would've took him if Leeds would've agreed a nominal fee outside of tribunal but decided not to gamble as they wouldn't agree to that.

I don't really understand the uproar anyway if he does go to Burnley. He's hardly proven talent. He looked very average to me in the games I saw him and couldn't force his way back into the Leeds side at the tail end of last season after injury.

If on the odd chance it is money related, it would again fall on the board rather than TP.

I can see where you're coming from regarding TPs style of play and agree, to a large extent. Although there's a lot wrong with our consecutive failure to back whoever is manager stemming from the board. This is why we will never really see what any manager is capable of.

But i'll judge this owner and TP at the end of the window.