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+----- Thread: Barrow, Evatt and Hird (/showthread.php?tid=8075)
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Barrow, Evatt and Hird - Dancingwilldoit - 26-01-2019
We set off like an express train and should have been a couple up within the first 15mins. Don't quite know what happened then but the wheels just literally fell off the bus. we huffed and puffed the rest of the game and apart from a short succession of goalmouth scrambles in the second half we did very little. On the other hand I didn't think we ever looked like losing so 0-0 was probably fair.
Was very disappointed with Barrow, I thought they were a dirty niggly side who got away with murder and were lucky to have 10 men on the pitch at the end. Their no 9 jumped up with high elbows repeatedly and only got booked for kicking the ball away. Sam Hird had a good steady game and still looks class though.
For us Shaw was just hacked down every time he got the ball and in the first half the ref ignored everything but seemed to get a better grip in the second but it was a bit late then.
The ref missed a blatant pen when their keeper hauled down a player in the box just as he was about to shoot (don't know who it was) and Denton was repeatedly held down at set pieces but that seems to be the norm at this level.
I dont know whats happened to Rowley, he seems to be going backwards. Kiwomya was poor today but Holis was just shocking. Jalal showed us why he may not have featured in MA's teams as his distribution was dreadful. Don't think he had a save to make all game though.
First game I have seen under Sheridan. One thing I just don't understand is why play Denton on his own up top then repeatedly lob long balls to his head for him to flick onto who exactly with nobody anywhere near him?
Not a good game to watch and I hope to god its not a sign of things to come but I'm not holding my breath.
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - SaltergateBorn - 27-01-2019
You`ve voiced my thoughts pretty much word for word, Dancing.
I always had great respect for Ian Evatt as a player, but if this is the sort of team he`s putting out I`m afraid i can`t say the same about him as a manager. Some of those tackles yesterday virtually constituted common assault. They had obviously identified Kiwomya and Shaw as the two players whose pace could hurt them and decided to put them out of the game if they could; they succeeded with Kiwomya (the referee didn`t even penalise that one) and tried their damnedest with Shaw. I`m all for referees letting the game flow as much as possible and not blowing their whistle continuously but when a team is clearly adopting physical violence as a tactic and setting out to injure the opposition, then players have to be protected. The officiating yesterday was an absolute farce – and this is from somebody who doesn`t like criticising referees!
The linesmen, as usual, seemed to regard giving off-sides as their sole reason for existing and apparently saw anything else that happened more than 2 inches from them as ‘nuffing to do wiv me, mate’. I saw the same push by their `keeper and as I was sitting right behind the linesman I really can`t believe that he didn`t. Something has to be done about the refereeing standards at this level.
If only we could have put away one of this early chances, it would have been a completely different game and result. But we didn`t; so the misery continues for a while longer.
If there`s one consolation to be gleaned from yesterday`s game it`s that although we may be crap at the moment at least we`re not a bunch of thugs. After that game, I`m rather glad that Evo didn`t get the manager`s job at our place; I`d rather be totally embarrassed by our team – as I surely am at present – than downright ashamed, which I would be if we played the way Barrow did yesterday..
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - Devongone - 27-01-2019
Evo thought Barrow put together some lovely passing moves in the second half and were much the better side.
Maidenhead and Salford both committed more fouls than Barrow yesterday in our league.
Almost every week from Division One downwards we've been complaining about the standard of refereeing. Shouldn't we be complaining instead about the foul play that is the norm in football? Were you surprised they targeted the two men with pace? Hasn't that been happening ever since you first got involved with football? "I'll soon slow him down! was always the mantra from the lowest level amateur up to the pros. If Sam Hird was representative of the pace they had available at the back no wonder Barrow went after Shaw and Kiwomya. Sam has more than a touch of class, but he'd struggle to beat me over thirty yards (that's as far as I'd last). Neymar came off in tears for PSG the other night. He was too quick - they shoed him! You have to learn to swim, or you sink ...... and that's probably how Kiwomya's descent to our level started.
It would be great if the FA could find a way to improve the standard of refereeing - a bit more respect and better manners and behaviour around the field from players and fans might help the ref to make good decisions in a less frenzied atmosphere - but looking at games at the top level there is a lot of poor decision-making and plenty of stuff is simply missed, so what do we expect lower down?
There is an answer to defenders who try to put the frighteners on - you pick up the real message which is that they are scared of you. You target them, play the ball in behind them, turn them twist them run at them more than ever. It'll either make a goal or get them sent off. Now that's exactly what I liked about Tendayi Darikwa, he kept running at his man till it worked. He wasn't scared to fail, or even take the odd knock.
They foul you because you are better than them. If they could outplay you they'd be doing it!
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - Dancingwilldoit - 27-01-2019
Maidenhead and Salford probably had a better ref Dev. The refs job is to apply the rules and protect players like Shaw and Kiwomya, not ignore blatant fouls, pushes, catching somebodies heel when they leave you for dead - repeatedly and going in with high elbows.
Maybe that was what went wrong yesterday they just stopped us playing and got away with it. Its not football as I know it, ok there have always been dirty players around but Barrow were cynical with the exception of Hird and SGB's right, if that's Evatts idea of gamesmanship then I'd rather not watch it.
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - SaltergateBorn - 28-01-2019
Personally, Dev, I couldn`t give a toss what happened at Maidenhead, Salford or anywhere else for that matter; I was talking about the game that I saw yesterday and my reaction to it. Apart from which, it wasn`t so much the quantity of fouling that was going on – although there was more than enough of it, to be sure – that enraged me, but the brutality involved, the potential for serious injury to the player on the receiving end of it and the complete lack of protection offered by the officials.
The tackle that saw to Kiwomya happened some time before he actually went off – he struggled on for a while, to his credit, but he was clearly damaged – and merited a sending-off in itself. The defender went straight through the back of him with no attempt whatsoever to play the ball. Under today`s rules, that`s a straight red; on this occasion, the man in black (I`m reluctant to call him a referee, as this implies a level of competence far greater than he deserves) didn`t even give a yellow. I`m not sure he actually saw it as a foul at all.
It`s all well and good saying that a player with pace should ‘turn and twist his defender and run at him’ but when the defender in question doesn`t bother to twist or turn but instead just cleans you out, with perhaps the added bonus of a stiff-arm to the face in the process, that tactic tends not to work too well. And from where I was sitting, which was fairly close to the incident, that`s exactly what happened to Lee Shaw in the second half; it could easily have fractured his cheek-bone.
Now correct me if I`m wrong – I may be missing something here – but as I understand it the rules state that any player who raises his hands to another player`s face gets a red card. No ifs. No buts. No maybes. Off. This clown deemed it to merit nothing more than a yellow (and a fairly reluctant one at that, it seemed); the same level of punishment given for a shirt-pull or for kicking the ball away. Ridiculous.
The linesman was even nearer to the incident than I was, but as there was no off-side involved he clearly thought it was none of his business.
If Mr Evatt chooses to ignore the thuggery of his team and to concentrate instead on the ‘lovely passing moves’ in the second hall, that`s fine. We all have our own standards and those are clearly his. However, I could be cynical and point out that it`s not too difficult to play ‘lovely passing moves’ in the second half when you`ve successfully crocked half the opposition in the first half. I don`t retract a word of what I said about him, either as a player or as a manager. If that`s the ethos that he inculcates in his team – and also condones, it seems, from his comments after the match - then so be it. I still maintain, however, that on the basis of what I saw yesterday if he ever gets anywhere the manager`s office at the Proact I`ll be off – for good. I would honestly rather get relegated again than have to resort to tactics like that to pick up points.
I quite agree with you, Dev, about showing respect for referees but the fact is that respect is not freely given – it has to be earned; and that applies in any walk of life. I accept that we`re all biased when it comes to following our own team and that there are borderline decisions that sometimes go for us and sometimes go against us; we have to live with that. I`ve said before that I hate to criticise referees and that they do a sometimes impossible job that I wouldn`t dream of doing myself. However, the need to show respect does not justify turning a blind eye to or excusing incompetence – and I`m afraid the officials yesterday were just not up to the job. What Barrow were doing was blatantly tactical, planned and cynical. It should have been stopped very quickly but wasn`t.
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - Devongone - 28-01-2019
You agree to respect the referee by engaging in a game in which there is a referee. He does NOT have to earn your respect. You give that respect freely and unconditionally. (Even if inside you are thinking he's a frog-faced xxxx, even if he's David Elleray.) That is a large part of what sport is about. That SHOULD apply to both players and fans. If it really did then decision-making would certainly improve.
If you don't want to be refereed play backgammon, climb mountains, ride a mountain bike, take up parcours.
There ARE terrible referees. There ARE men especially who start refereeing for the wrong reasons. There are also thousands who do it because they love the game and would hate to think they are ruining it.
I wouldn't do it for anything.
It is terrible that Kiwomya was kicked out of the game ........ but we should have targeted the offender. He hadn't told us how tough he was, he'd told us what he was afraid of. Send Shaw to chase him, push JBW up on him, see how he likes that. Keep, keep doing it. Crying to the ref' will only get you so far. You deal with it, just like you deal with the unexpected and wrong in life. The fact remains that teams NEVER come to foul you because they are better than you - they foul you to intimidate you and stop you playing, because they don't believe they can beat you by being better than you.
I don't take the attitude I'd rather lose than play dirty. I'd rather win and make the opposition pay for playing in such a crude manner. If referees are to be human beings then mistakes will be part of the data, but we can't attribute every result we don't like to some generic failure or we destroy the purpose of the game.
You send your son out for a game of footie, you're not hoping he learns how to cheat successfully and fool the nice man who agreed to ref the game and is now being berated by a crowd of angry parents ........... If that nice man finally reaches the National League and misses stuff in front of 5,000 Chesterfield fans, does he deserve our anger or should we perhaps respect his courage in allowing the game to continue to exist, cos he certainly ain't getting rich on it?
As to the inference that Barrow persistently play this way, Stats are difficult as our league has apparently lost them, but I looked at seven weekends in which it turned out Barrow were never the dirtiest team and twice their fouls were down in single figures (even against Salford!). The most fouls I saw committed was by Maidstone who managed 21 in a 0-1 away win. The most we managed was 15 against Havant. On my quick survey the team who looked dirtiest, often hovering around 16 fouls a game was Eastleigh. Barrow are just middle of the road. The most gob-smacking stat I saw was Aldershot who committed only 3 fouls in a game they lost 4-0. Barrow's 14 fouls on Saturday would never have topped the stats in the seven weeks I looked at!
I don't know if the FA has improved but back when I was actively involved in the game it seemed particularly poor at pushing forward referees who had an intuitive understanding of the game and instead promoted those who sounded or looked the part (from what seemed to me a very middle-class point of view!) Back when I was a player the refs we players liked were also those who seemed destined never to get chances above our level! Those we had issues with climbed the ladder.
I've no issues with Dancing or SGB, who I think of as friends who are excellent and trustworthy voices on everything, but on refs I can't help thinking that unless we can reach the point at which we accept all decisions as honestly made, whether right or wrong, and just play on, football is sliding down a steep and inhuman slope. When you need VAR to ferret out the truth then someone is cheating. Sunday tea time, Ampadu slides in for the ball. The Wednesday player goes down under the challenge. The referee gives a penalty - I think I would've too. Only two people knew the truth. Ampadu knew he had kicked the ball. The Wednesday player knew his boot had caught Ampadu as he cleared the ball, he must have seen the ball change direction and known it wasn't his boot that caused it. If they had been playing snooker the Wednesday player would have been expected to call a foul on himself. He knew; the ball and an opponent feel different. At football he claimed a penalty. VAR showed Ampadu's florescent boot brilliantly playing the ball. No one thought to say perhaps the Wednesday player should have at least told his mates the final decision was right, but if he had maybe Fox wouldn't have immediately dived in to concede a hot-headed penalty and Barry Bannan might not have wasted the whole game arguing. Decisions do change the whole game, but not just by being wrong.
When a keeper makes a mistake everyone says he has to put it behind him, and as I know only too well, it really is one of the keys to success, but outfield players, entire teams and sets of fans prove themselves almost totally incapable of that same ability every single week, dwelling on incidents they only make more important with every minute that ticks by. And it loses whole games.
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - Devongone - 28-01-2019
And as for the game ....... I don't fancy Barrow's keeper. Goalkeeping, fielding or batting at cricket I always thought the longer I could keep my eye on the ball the better I performed. Watch the ball onto your bat or into your gloves. Barrow's keeper shuts his eyes ...... even on a challenge for a cross.
Get a new keeper Evo. We need you to win as many games as you can from now and certainly not concede against teams down the bottom because your keeper is showing off his new eye-shadow.
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - Dancingwilldoit - 28-01-2019
Dev,
Referees don't need to earn my respect but I do expect them to know and apply the rules of the game. This is (even at our new found level) a professional game. Its not The Dog Bollocks vs Armthwaite Amateurs. The refs get paid. If its not enough then they should do something about it but if they are being paid to ref a game I am watching then very simply I expect them to do just that. I also expect them to read the rule book every now and again
What I don't want or expect to see is 4 of our bigger players wading into an opposition player because he trod on our wingers toes and broke his little pinkie. Our lot would get the wrong guy anyway so its its a bit immaterial.
There are enough cheats and corrupt people in this world without encouraging footballers by turning a blind eye when it suits. Its about time the FA and refs got a grip.
What you are basically advocating is the same as 2 boxers squaring up to each other in "the gentleman's sport" one of them floors the other by giving him a hefty kick in the balls. The ref was picking his nose at the time so his fist blocked his view. However the ref thinks "whatever happened its his own fault because he should have run away, I would" so he gives him a count of 10. Meanwhile our prostrate guys manager and trainer pile into the ring and knock 7 bells out of the offender whilst the ref carries on the count and awards him the fight. He didn't see the melee behind him because he was momentarily distracted by an attractive female that caught his eye (I know it doesn't work for you but you get the gist). The ref should be aware of whats going on end of.
For the record I would rather lose than win by cheating because that's exactly what it is. Thuggery has no place in our game or any other and its up to the referees to stamp it out early. If they don't do that, I reserve the right to call them whatever I like.
The trouble at our level is that teams seem to spend the first 10 or 15 mins testing the ref to see what they can get away with, if the refs dont get a grip then it shapes the tone for the rest of the game.
Is the use of drugs in any sport acceptable? Its all the same word - cheating. If that's not acceptable then neither is the sight of players deliberately trying to take another out.
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - Dancingwilldoit - 29-01-2019
Just a further note re cheating. Last night Brentford were awarded a penalty where the camera showed no contact whatsoever. The player had over run it and went down in hope. In these cases the FA or whoever should give a retrospective yellow card and a fine to the player. Every game in the country has cameras now, if players knew their cheating may be exposed and they would be punished, would they think twice? If it hit their pocket I think so. OK you cant always prove it either way 100% but in some (like last night) you clearly can.
RE: Barrow, Evatt and Hird - Devongone - 29-01-2019
(29-01-2019, 12:26)Dancingwilldoit Wrote: Just a further note re cheating. Last night Brentford were awarded a penalty where the camera showed no contact whatsoever. The player had over run it and went down in hope. In these cases the FA or whoever should give a retrospective yellow card and a fine to the player. Every game in the country has cameras now, if players knew their cheating may be exposed and they would be punished, would they think twice? If it hit their pocket I think so. OK you cant always prove it either way 100% but in some (like last night) you clearly can.
Unfortunately I think when you report on a game and end up talking a lot about foul play and the referee you are very accurately reflecting the game. We are all turning football which should be a sport which brings joy and pleasure to players and spectators into some sort of decision-based cheat's paradise in which everything you can get away with is okay and the man who shoulders the blame has to wear black to reflect how depressed he ends up feeling about humanity.
It is commonplace for spectators to complain that the ref' thinks he is the centre of attention ........ but now he is right, that's the way the game is. He should be providing a neutral decision in the odd disputed moment, but now he's running the whole show. He has to look after baby players aged 32 lying on the floor howling after they've shown too much of the ball to a younger and quicker opponent and distinguish that from genuine injuries. He has to be aware that almost everyone on the field is there to cheat and everyone of them would be prepared to say it is him that is cheating. He is going to be under pressure for every minute of the ninety he's out there and the whole result will hinge on what he has seen or not seen and how he has interpreted that information. YET THIS A GAME. IT IS NOT A WAR.
Cheating should be the worst thing you can do in any game, because it destroys the whole point of playing. You're caught bang to rights diving when no one has touched you and yet you are appealing for a penalty - you should be banned for six months ....... and if another player in your team is caught doing the same thing during that period there should be a points deduction for the team.
We have to get back to the ref being a nice adjunct to the game, that honest, trusted voice you'll abide by even if you think he might be wrong this time. We can't allow sports to have to be constantly monitored by some sort of robocop ........ or not only sport but life itself will be on the way to being impossible.
Mats Wilander at match point in Final of the French Tennis Championship as a teenager held up his hand and disputed the call which had been in his favour & which would have won him the championship. He went on to win. That IS sport. He played fair. The Corinthians used to be so ashamed at having conceded a penalty their keeper leant on the post and made no attempt to save. That's sport. Shaking the ref's hand and saying well done at the end of the game, that's sport, even if he made mistakes. Showing the opposition they can't beat you even if they are dirtiest set of baskets you've come across, that's sport ...... and shaking their hands after feels so effing good too!