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+----- Thread: European footy - mostly South American? (/showthread.php?tid=1398)
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European footy - mostly South American? - meandbrenarebaggies - 26-02-2015
Should we be disappointed to see how few United Kingdom players there are in the teams that play in the Champions League? I don’t know much about the sixteen teams currently engaged in this competition so I spent some time looking at their squads and the nationalities of their players and was quite surprised to see just how dependant they are on South American players. The German clubs seem to retain more German players within their teams whereas English, Spanish and French teams seem to be very heavily reliant on outside talent. Does any of this matter? If we were interested in other human activities like Art, Music, Architecture, etc would we be alarmed to see most World class opera singers coming from Italy and many World class architects coming from Britain? If Sky bought the TV rights to ice-fishing would we be annoyed to see so many Eskimos enjoying the high-life?
So why do we carry on competing in a sport where it’s so obvious that South Americans are, and will always be, (yes I know the Germans did that World Cup thing) the best? Nationalism is a terrible thing so should we take a purist viewpoint and welcome performances from the best players in the World without regard to their country of origin? So when I watch City being turned over by Messi and Co, I should not watch with memories of Colin Bell, Mike Summerbee and Franny Lee anywhere in the mix since that was a long time ago and the past is a different country.
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - silverbaggie - 26-02-2015
I think that we all want to see the best players performing well for our teams wherever they may come from.
The one downside is the effect it has on our national teams when many British players just aren't getting enough game time at the top level and as a result England, Scotland etc underperform on the World or European stages.
On a side note, as mentioned on a different thread, the Qatar World Cup staged in the Winter will see a massive exodus of Foreign International players from the Premiership for several weeks. I wonder if this will act as a great leveller for the lesser Premiership teams like ourselves.
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - devwakey - 26-02-2015
As I've mentioned before the problem is that now every National side wants to play like Spain/Brazil rather than working to their strengths.
The English game was all about passion and tough tackling, however now that has pretty much been removed from the game that leaves us with a void to fill which results in us trying to play "Flairy" football when in reality this is not our strength.
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - drewks - 26-02-2015
(26-02-2015, 11:07)devwakey Wrote: As I've mentioned before the problem is that now every National side wants to play like Spain/Brazil rather than working to their strengths.
The English game was all about passion and tough tackling, however now that has pretty much been removed from the game that leaves us with a void to fill which results in us trying to play "Flairy" football when in reality this is not our strength.
Great point made there devwakey - agree completely.
I've always thought that we - and by that I mean our clubs and more so our COUNTRY - should play to our strengths and not try and imitate the tippy-tappy posession stuff that others have championed, and become very good at.
'Old fashioned' centre forwards, passion, work rate, stamina and speed coupled with skill on and off the ball have always been our strengths and should have a place in today's game, as should tough BUT FAIR tackling; however I wonder whether the 'powers that be' have taken some of these elements out of the modern game with their interpretation of the rules? As far as I know the basic rules that would cover all these have not changed, so why has 'what is generally allowed' changed so much?
Like them or loathe them, TP's Stoke were (moderately) successful playing this game to the extreme for years. I'm not saying that we should all try to emulate that, but IMO there IS a place for the older style of English football in today's game - watered down perhaps but still keeping, and playing to, it's strengths.
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - devwakey - 26-02-2015
(26-02-2015, 13:48)drewks Wrote:(26-02-2015, 11:07)devwakey Wrote: As I've mentioned before the problem is that now every National side wants to play like Spain/Brazil rather than working to their strengths.
The English game was all about passion and tough tackling, however now that has pretty much been removed from the game that leaves us with a void to fill which results in us trying to play "Flairy" football when in reality this is not our strength.
Great point made there devwakey - agree completely.
I've always thought that we - and by that I mean our clubs and more so our COUNTRY - should play to our strengths and not try and imitate the tippy-tappy posession stuff that others have championed, and become very good at.
'Old fashioned' centre forwards, passion, work rate, stamina and speed coupled with skill on and off the ball have always been our strengths and should have a place in today's game, as should tough BUT FAIR tackling; however I wonder whether the 'powers that be' have taken some of these elements out of the modern game with their interpretation of the rules? As far as I know the basic rules that would cover all these have not changed, so why has 'what is generally allowed' changed so much?
Like them or loathe them, TP's Stoke were (moderately) successful playing this game to the extreme for years. I'm not saying that we should all try to emulate that, but IMO there IS a place for the older style of English football in today's game - watered down perhaps but still keeping, and playing to, it's strengths.
Totally agree with your Drewks.
I'm not saying I want to see elbows and two footers. But what I do think would suit us is the opponents being a bit scared knowing they were in for a physical game and that if they were in for a physical battle.
Our strengths in the national team shoudl be based on wingers with the pace we have on offer at full back and wings
(Wallcott/Ox-Chamberlain/lennon/Baines - for his crossing)
but because everyone got all excited about Spain dominating for a decade, every believes that is now the way to win games - NOT THE CASE.
I personally was a big fan of Crouch in the England team. a One off player that had an amazing goal scoring record with England!!
not the most gifted player, nor the most techinal, but the lad was a foot higher than most and the aerial advantage was massive.... if we played for crosses and getting the ball in the area!
I would like to see the World Cup go and any mutli national tournament go back to basics and let teams play true to their nature, not to the BArcelona style of play.
Yes its brilliant, but its not suitable for everyone
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - BaggyBomber - 26-02-2015
(26-02-2015, 11:07)devwakey Wrote: As I've mentioned before the problem is that now every National side wants to play like Spain/Brazil rather than working to their strengths.
The English game was all about passion and tough tackling, however now that has pretty much been removed from the game that leaves us with a void to fill which results in us trying to play "Flairy" football when in reality this is not our strength.
During that tough tackling era, England suffered it's heaviest international defeats in 1953 and 1954 when we lost, both times to Hungary, 6-3 at Wembley, then 7-1 in Hungary. Unfortunately, while I have always loved our domestic football, them damn foreigners always seem to play it better than us.
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - drewks - 26-02-2015
(26-02-2015, 18:23)BaggyBomber Wrote:(26-02-2015, 11:07)devwakey Wrote: As I've mentioned before the problem is that now every National side wants to play like Spain/Brazil rather than working to their strengths.
The English game was all about passion and tough tackling, however now that has pretty much been removed from the game that leaves us with a void to fill which results in us trying to play "Flairy" football when in reality this is not our strength.
During that tough tackling era, England suffered it's heaviest international defeats in 1953 and 1954 when we lost, both times to Hungary, 6-3 at Wembley, then 7-1 in Hungary. Unfortunately, while I have always loved our domestic football, them damn foreigners always seem to play it better than us.
....but we also won the World Cup in 66 and dominated Europe for many years in the 70's though, Bomber
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - BaggyBomber - 26-02-2015
(26-02-2015, 20:20)drewks Wrote:Were we still playing the tough English style by '66, Drewks? Either way, I have always thought we were luckier than blue pigs to have won the World Cup. Right from being the home country, the Argentina win and the disputed goal in the final, everything went for us. What did England win after that? In my opinion, Ramsey's football style put English football back.(26-02-2015, 18:23)BaggyBomber Wrote:(26-02-2015, 11:07)devwakey Wrote: As I've mentioned before the problem is that now every National side wants to play like Spain/Brazil rather than working to their strengths.
The English game was all about passion and tough tackling, however now that has pretty much been removed from the game that leaves us with a void to fill which results in us trying to play "Flairy" football when in reality this is not our strength.
During that tough tackling era, England suffered it's heaviest international defeats in 1953 and 1954 when we lost, both times to Hungary, 6-3 at Wembley, then 7-1 in Hungary. Unfortunately, while I have always loved our domestic football, them damn foreigners always seem to play it better than us.
....but we also won the World Cup in 66 and dominated Europe for many years in the 70's though, Bomber
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - Ska'dForLife-WBA - 26-02-2015
Got to agree there. England were a good side in '66, but undoubtedly got the rub of the green, and slavish adherence to what was then considered "the winning formula" handicapped a national team which had far better players in the 1970s, while our clubs were setting the example by playing great football and taking Europe by storm.
I don't buy into the notion of physicality being some magical English "strength". It's something our coaches have always instilled into young players, and thus has always been part and parcel of the English game, but recent decades have seen foreign teams absolutely school us in individual technical ability (and before anyone starts, I don't think tiki-taka is the holy grail of football tactics; indeed, like us with 4-4-2 and "strength", Spain became too obsessed with the style, didn't innovate or evolve, and thus came an absolute cropper last summer as a direct result). The gap between us and the opposition was painfully illustrated when we played Italy, and Pirlo was controlling the game and setting the tempo without breaking a sweat. Who do we have who can do the same? Why can't we produce such a player? Why is our inbuilt kneejerk response to being outclassed always "be FASTER and STRONGER!"
What's the physical difference between young Paul kicking a ball in Birmingham, Paolo kicking it in Milan and Paulinho kicking it in Rio? They've all got two legs, a chest and a head. What's the mental difference? They've all got brains, they can all think and act on instinct. Is there a cultural difference? Undoubtedly, but I don't think it's as big as some would have us believe. The difference is what they're being taught, and as long as we're neglecting Paul's technical ability in favour of beefing him up into some brick shithouse, we'll carry on struggling.
RE: European footy - mostly South American? - drewks - 26-02-2015
(26-02-2015, 20:40)BaggyBomber Wrote:(26-02-2015, 20:20)drewks Wrote:Were we still playing the tough English style by '66, Drewks? Either way, I have always thought we were luckier than blue pigs to have won the World Cup. Right from being the home country, the Argentina win and the disputed goal in the final, everything went for us. What did England win after that? In my opinion, Ramsey's football style put English football back.(26-02-2015, 18:23)BaggyBomber Wrote:(26-02-2015, 11:07)devwakey Wrote: As I've mentioned before the problem is that now every National side wants to play like Spain/Brazil rather than working to their strengths.
The English game was all about passion and tough tackling, however now that has pretty much been removed from the game that leaves us with a void to fill which results in us trying to play "Flairy" football when in reality this is not our strength.
During that tough tackling era, England suffered it's heaviest international defeats in 1953 and 1954 when we lost, both times to Hungary, 6-3 at Wembley, then 7-1 in Hungary. Unfortunately, while I have always loved our domestic football, them damn foreigners always seem to play it better than us.
....but we also won the World Cup in 66 and dominated Europe for many years in the 70's though, Bomber
...not absolutely sure what era devwakey's talking about, bomber, I sort of assumed it was the same as me - the 60's, 70's and 80's (to a point), where our leagues were full of English players and maybe a smattering of Scots and Welsh players; English managers.....and an English style of play!
The point being that when we try and play more like South Americans or Europeans, we always are found wanting; why not try and play to what are our traditional strengths??
(sorry to have maybe partly hijacked the theme of the thread, meanbren
)