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RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 24-01-2017
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38723261
And 'breaking news' as the govt unsurprisingly loses it's appeal to the Supreme Court and the final decision/approval goes through parliament! However, I detect one 'sting in the tail' where devolved govs in Scotland and NI won't have a say in the process - so much for devolved govt and whole idea of having it esp when votes, such as in the EU referendum, are a resounding 'remain'! I'd also luv to know what this ill-advised appeal for a Supreme Court ruling cost UK tax payers??? Also the NLP and Corbyn are in a 'strange place' at the moment - can't see them even trying to force through Nick Clegg's suggestion that the type of EU exit goes back to the British people with possibly a rejection in that process anyway!
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 24-01-2017
May is losing control of the process. Which I suspect is what labour want whilst keeping the brexiters onside.
As for the democratic discrepancy? - well its another reason IMO why we need to be independent. May has treated Scotland with real disrespect on this.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 24-01-2017
Yep! I agree with that view and the firm constitutional line that Sturgeon has uttered re this issue. I firmly believe that if the majority of people knew what they know now re this whole brexit fiasco, there would be a resounding remain vote on this issue if we reran the vote tomorrow!!! The result wouldn't even be close and that's the real tragedy of this whole carry on where these Tory ##### will still be pushing for brexit!!
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - ritchiebaby - 24-01-2017
(15-10-2016, 16:56)ritchiebaby Wrote: Jim - it's not difficult to understand. The middle ground will decide the result of any future Scottish Independence vote, not the vociferous nationalists, so any SNP plan should take that into consideration. From the reported headline policies it seems to me that there is an anti English/UK agenda in many of the SNP proposals.
0762 - the SNP lost the Scottish Independence vote in 2014 and they lost the UK wide EU vote in 2016 and all they can do is moan and threaten even more instability than we have at present. For all the SNP's delusions of their own importance in the UK, PM May will be negotiating the Brexit terms on behalf of the UK. If there is a rebellion against Brexit in Parliament, it will be the "hated" English Tories that will instigate it. Also, if my instincts are correct, PM May, as head of the UK Government will have the final decision on whether there will be another Scottish Referendum or not.
However this will be my last input meantime on this subject as we will obviously continue to disagree.
As far as I can see not much has changed since October. It is true that the House of Commons will have a debate and vote on the triggering of Article 50. If passed, it will go to the unelected House of Lords. The Tory Government will still have the dubious honour of leading the UK's agreed response to that decision. Just as it had before.
Nicola Sturgeon has stated that a second Scottish Referendum was "highly likely", then "even more likely" and now today "very likely". Not much change there either.
The UK wide EU Referendum decided that the UK is to leave the EU - not just bits of the UK, but the whole UK. Same as before.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 25-01-2017
(24-01-2017, 22:40)ritchiebaby Wrote:(15-10-2016, 16:56)ritchiebaby Wrote: Jim - it's not difficult to understand. The middle ground will decide the result of any future Scottish Independence vote, not the vociferous nationalists, so any SNP plan should take that into consideration. From the reported headline policies it seems to me that there is an anti English/UK agenda in many of the SNP proposals.
0762 - the SNP lost the Scottish Independence vote in 2014 and they lost the UK wide EU vote in 2016 and all they can do is moan and threaten even more instability than we have at present. For all the SNP's delusions of their own importance in the UK, PM May will be negotiating the Brexit terms on behalf of the UK. If there is a rebellion against Brexit in Parliament, it will be the "hated" English Tories that will instigate it. Also, if my instincts are correct, PM May, as head of the UK Government will have the final decision on whether there will be another Scottish Referendum or not.
However this will be my last input meantime on this subject as we will obviously continue to disagree.
As far as I can see not much has changed since October. It is true that the House of Commons will have a debate and vote on the triggering of Article 50. If passed, it will go to the unelected House of Lords. The Tory Government will still have the dubious honour of leading the UK's agreed response to that decision. Just as it had before.
Nicola Sturgeon has stated that a second Scottish Referendum was "highly likely", then "even more likely" and now today "very likely". Not much change there either.
The UK wide EU Referendum decided that the UK is to leave the EU - not just bits of the UK, but the whole UK. Same as before.
What's the point in voting for a Westminster MP when it's obvious that when it comes to matters of "national" importance any non-English constituency voices have absolutely no say? This is the legal standpoint too going by the supreme courts decision yesterday. So what is even the point of having our own parliament if we cant influence a decision like this ?
It's supposed to be a union of two nations, not one nation owning another, although that's what it effectively is. That's why I prefer independence,i don't particularly care about the SNP, on independence the Scottish people can decide who they want to take us forward and i'll roll with that whatever the majority choose.
But now its clearer than ever before that the union no longer works for Scotland. How much xxxx clearer does it need to be ?
The SNP clearly made the case that only a substantial material change in conditions could trigger another referendum. Brexit is that change in conditions - undeniably.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 25-01-2017
Hear, hear Jim! I wish more pro Union Scots would start 'smelling the coffee' and stop SNP bashing at every opportunity when the likes of Nicola, or more recently Ecky, come out with pro Scottish interest comments that effectively do not suit their own dialogue and its classified as 'moaning' for example - LISTEN TO WHAT IS BEING SAID!!!!!!!! I honestly don't think Nicola wanted an indy referendum last year anyway but, as a senior SNP member, she ultimately wants to see Scottish independence in her life time! We don't even have a Devomax set up in Scottish governance - a promise that was unfulfilled and I'm sure Sturgeon would've taken that deal as the 'do minimum'!!! Scot indy has gotta be for the right reasons and I believe what she's doing is 'preparing the ground' for the hustings to eventually begin after we are 'suckered' by a contemptuous Tory govt!!!
IMO that scenario will unfold and that's when the 'mood' of people within the Scottish population will significantly change! It's a case of 'watching and waiting' for the UK govt to 'shit all over us', contrary to the reassuring crap that is being uttered by Cruella and her divisive Tory cronies! Better together and 'staying with the Union' eh? All we did was compromise ourselves esp in situations like this Brexit one and you're absolutely right! Where's the equality, the equal partner that was mooted often enough by our anti indy opponents during Scot referendum year 2014 and the eventual 2015 negotiations that resulted in 'watered down' devolved powers??!! There are still far too many voting Scots who have short memories on these issues and the shameless tactics, scaremongering, blatant lies and blanket media campaign that was employed by desperate opponents at every opportunity to deter Scottish voters from voting for Scottish independence!! I look forward to perusing this publicised White Paper that the Tories finally decided to present and publish shortly and see how detrimental it will be for Scotland and Scottish interests!!! We are a European country and have been closely linked historically for well over a century!! It's in our culture and any resident Scot knows this without dismissing the importance of our UK ties as well!!
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 25-01-2017
I'm sick of people talking us down all the time.
We need to be independent or we'll just wither away as the South East reaps all the Brexit advantages and the rest of England slowly realises what they've let themselves in for.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 25-01-2017
It transpires that this belated White Paper was not gonna happen last night and suddenly it has all changed and the toerags have decided to present their plan for the future without the single market!! I wonder why they had an 'about turn'? Could it be the significant, reticent members of the Tory govt/party who are opposed to Brexit and are 'keeping their gun powder dry' until the appropriate moment?
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 25-01-2017
Think its more to do with keir starmer,the labour brexit guy and qc. A real smart operator at odds with the wellmeaning but hapless corbyn.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - ritchiebaby - 26-01-2017
Firstly the UK is a union of four nations, not two. When the UK Government has an overall majority, the rest of the parties don't have much of a say in things.
Secondly we have a Scottish Parliament so that we can take decisions on matters which have been devolved to us, but not on matters relating to the whole UK.
Just for the record, I think that Scotland is quite capable of running all it's own affairs with independence and I would be generally in favour. I just don't want Nicola Sturgeon to have anything to do with it.
As far as Brexit is concerned, there's a lot that could happen yet, so I'll wait for a while and see how it progresses.