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+----- Thread: EUROS (/showthread.php?tid=10466)
RE: EUROS - WakeyTerrier - 15-07-2021
Paul Merson, England v Argentina took the 3rd penalty and Scored! I think he knows more than Le Tissier about takings pens in a big match.
Southgate is most successful manager/coach since Alf Ramsey and he's getting pelters.
He's taken us to the Nations League finals by topping a group that had Croatia and Spain in it including a win in Seville
He took us to the World Cup Semi Final
and now he's taken us to the Euro 2020 finals
and yet it's not good enough for some, I suppose anything other than winning is failure in some eyes
RE: EUROS - Devongone - 15-07-2021
Yeah sure Merson took the third penalty in the most protected position out of the five. He was a very good player, but he's spent large parts of his life addling his brain. Of course that doesn't equal 48 out of 49 across a long career. You have to be desperate even to argue the case.
As far I can see Southgate is getting praise from almost the whole country apart from HibeeJim and me. He was almost a protected species during the competition. I like the man, but if he took over the management of Chesterfield now I wouldn't be confident we'd win The National League. And I mean that.
If there has been a more insignificant international competition than the Nations League I missed it - The Inter Toto Cup of international football.
The trouble is Wakey you weaken a reasonable case with pitiable sources. If Merson's argument holds water why does anyone practice anything? Every top athlete has to reproduce what he hones on the training ground in a frenzied stadium full of roaring spectators. He has to be confident in his technique. Our one absolutely confident penalty-taker surprised the xxxx out of me - Harry Maguire. Don't know whether a lot or a little practice gave him that mindset, but it was the right one for him.
The real trouble with very conservative thinking is that when it is pushed up against a wall it has a tendency to hit random select. How else could you come up with a 19 year-old, with no penalty experience as the man who has to score to save you or win the game? Southgate loves Bukayo's ability, so do I, but he should have looked after both him and Jadon.
You win the discussion for me. In three separate competitions Southgate's sensible safe approach has got us close, but we haven't won. Doing the same things over and over and expecting to get a different result is a sign of madness. If there weren't weaknesses we'd have won, because we had more good players than Italy available. But there were weaknesses, there always are, we're human beings. If we want to win I think we need to address them, otherwise we'll be having the same discussion again after the World Cup, where we'll be playing in very unfavourable conditions despite the air-conditioning. There's nothing wrong with tapping into available brain-power. Top managers in other spheres openly do it. Otherwise sure as eggs is eggs nice Mr Southgate will come up against some unpleasant man who'll out-think him in the Semis or the Final and I think the talent we have deserves more than that. He needs BETTER help and as a footballing nation we need to trust our most creative players. Unlike HibeeJim when the World Cup comes round I think we will have the best squad of players on paper, because all our players, except perhaps Trippier and Pickford, are still improving.
RE: EUROS - St Charles Owl - 15-07-2021
(15-07-2021, 17:43)Devongone Wrote: Yeah sure Merson took the third penalty in the most protected position out of the five. He was a very good player, but he's spent large parts of his life addling his brain. Of course that doesn't equal 48 out of 49 across a long career. You have to be desperate even to argue the case.
As far I can see Southgate is getting praise from almost the whole country apart from HibeeJim and me. He was almost a protected species during the competition. I like the man, but if he took over the management of Chesterfield now I wouldn't be confident we'd win The National League. And I mean that.
If there has been a more insignificant international competition than the Nations League I missed it - The Inter Toto Cup of international football.
The trouble is Wakey you weaken a reasonable case with pitiable sources. If Merson's argument holds water why does anyone practice anything? Every top athlete has to reproduce what he hones on the training ground in a frenzied stadium full of roaring spectators. He has to be confident in his technique. Our one absolutely confident penalty-taker surprised the xxxx out of me - Harry Maguire. Don't know whether a lot or a little practice gave him that mindset, but it was the right one for him.
You win the discussion for me. In three separate competitions Southgate's sensible safe approach has got us close, but we haven't won. Doing the same things over and over and expecting to get a different result is a sign of madness. If there weren't weaknesses we'd have won, because we had more good players than Italy available. But there were weaknesses, there always are, we're human beings. If we want to win I think we need to address them, otherwise we'll be having the same discussion again after the World Cup, where we'll be playing in very unfavourable conditions despite the air-conditioning. There's nothing wrong with tapping into available brain-power. Top managers in other spheres openly do it. Otherwise sure as eggs is eggs nice Mr Southgate will come up against some unpleasant man who'll out-think him in the Semis or the Final and I think the talent we have deserves more than that. He needs BETTER help.
This is the key thing to Southgate's survival, his approach is sensible and safe, he has set his stall out to make sure England are first and foremost difficult to beat, and it is working, we have just gone through a tournament and didn't get beaten once in 90 or 120 mins. We have progressed further and further with each tournament and while he will always get criticized for not allowing some players to freely do whatever they want he is the most successful England Manager in terms of tournament football. I spend a lot of my time watching England imploring them to get it forward more but they don't, I would love to see more flair and fast flowing football, and I think we have the players to do that but its not what Southgate does as he knows we would lose games 3-2 like we used to see all the time when we did play with flair.
I agree with him surrounding himself with others that can have input, I don't know anything about Steve Holland, he has been a career assistant, and a successful one but I also assume he is of the same mindset as Southgate. I am not sure that you could bring in an assistant who would have a philosophy of a Kevin Keegan as it wouldn't work with someone like Southgate. We are stuck with Southgate and I am ok with that at the moment, if he was to go you know we would follow the same path anyway and appoint a Sean Dyche or even maybe Eddie Howe, and they are not that dissimilar but have had more club success.
RE: EUROS - Devongone - 15-07-2021
Human beings tend to trust another voice that sounds most like their own. I think Mr Southgate needs to listen to somebody who knows how to win when it gets hard and who doesn't sound like him. Safety first is great getting through the first round, but if you wait until penalties in the Final before making your one wild gamble, you've left it too late.
RE: EUROS - hibeejim21 - 15-07-2021
Yeah but look at the teams you played to get to the semis and the final...
Southgates England have gone 2 tournaments and played 3 proper good teams. Belgium beat them twice. Croatia's peak 'Modric + Rakitic' generation outclassed them. (In all honesty Columbia should have beat them in Russia as well but thats another story.) This time they had a free pass to a final in their own back yard, stank the place out for much of it and then bottled the shoot out.
Yet we are supposed to believe Southgate will deliver the World Cup now ? Ok then I'm convinced.
RE: EUROS - theo_luddite - 15-07-2021
A couple of things (or so) to remember:
1. We were playing the best current side in world football. 30-odd games unbeaten and we're only the 4th to draw with them in 90 or 120 minutes. Do you really think anyone is gong to dominate them for 90 minutes right now let alone beat them?
2. We were all over them like a rash for 20-30 mins before Mancini managed to get them on the front foot. Something they'd been in first with pretty much every game up to the final. Spain were the only other side to keep 'em in their own half for a decent part of the matches that I saw.
3. It's not just the manager it's also the players. No side would keep that pace up against Italy.
4. How many fans were giving us a sniff of the final before Italy started it all off with a 3-0 win?
5. You can only play as well as the other side lets you. See 2 above for the rest of that one.
6. Was there really a need for wholesale England subs? No.
7. Why did we go defensive? Well pretty obvious, Italy started out like they used to, sitting back waiting to catch us on the break. Going 1 down after 2 minutes wasn't in their game plan either. They hadn't sat back quite far enough. Then eventually they moved their back 4 and everyone else a few (well many to be obvious) yards up the pitch and pressed us in our half rather then the cynical fouls in theirs. (They came later).
8. Could Southgate have made some subs earlier? Yes. Would it have changed the game? Doubtful. Why? We couldn't string two passes together or hit a long punt to anyone that was getting on the end of the ball at this stage. We can all be Mr. Hindsight and say Grealish would have done this, he would have done that. Not if he wasn't getting the ball he wouldn't. When he did we all saw what happened. They were doing anything they could get away with to take him out of the game.
9. As for penalties, they are all professional footballers. Not getting a free thump at the ball on target from that distance isn't forgivable. If the keeper saves it when it's on target - well you do know the keeper is a professional footballer too. As someone said earlier, there's an art to saving them just as much as scoring them.
10. Most of the players have known Southgate through the Under 21's and whatever age groups he used to coach in the England set-up. They believe in what he's telling them to do.
11. He maybe "lucked into the job" when Allardyce blew his chance, but you make your own luck. He's already laid the foundations
with the FA in Burton. Really, would we be having this discussion about Allardyce getting a defensive minded hoofball England side into a Euro final and drawing 1-1 with the best team in World Football? Not a snowball's chance.
Subs. Stick with him and don't tell me he isn't prepared to learn either.
RE: EUROS - WakeyTerrier - 16-07-2021
I agree that Southgate is very much a safety first kind of coach but i don't agree with the statement of "they had a free pass to a final in their own back yard, stank the place out for much of it and then bottled the shoot out."
Its a bit insulting to the teams we have played to say we had a free pass especially the German team.
Stank the place out
We deserved every one of of our wins in this tournament and I include our extra time win against Denmark because once we scored you could see only one team trying to win it.The only time we were really poor was against Scotland, who just had more energy for us and wanted it more but even then that game could've gone either way.
As for the final. Italy were deserved winners from what i saw on the night albeit from Row 11 behind the goals so not the best view. I've yet to watch it back but i would be interested to have another look at some of the referees decisions. Penalty shoot outs are a lottery, both keepers saves 2 and unfortunately for us Rashford hit the post...fine lines between success and failure but i wouldn't say they bottled it