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+----- Thread: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) (/showthread.php?tid=4570)
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - Devongone - 20-09-2016
Because of the idiot structure of football we can't do much about the Premier League and we aren't being asked.
Of course I'd like Sky Money to percolate down, but we have to take steps to make it happen. One of the major opportunities is the development of young players. The big clubs are completely crap at it. Despite Sky and Abrahamovic the last British player Chelsea developed, despite making the finals of every youth cup in living memory, was JOHN TERRY! Arsene Wenger regularly tries to bring through a young player at Arsenal but they all end up doing a Mark Randall! Its crap but it's also an OPPORTUNITY! It's a reason for young players to come to us.
Instead of the lower divisions providing a rest home for declining Premiership and Championship players it could be a breeding ground, but it would need an exciting structure not these goes-on-forever divisions that ordinary people forget who is winning and care even less. And we don't want to wear down young players with forty six games of being kicked by dross players (very, very few people have the heart of a Kevin Davies to come through these very physical divisions intact). The lower leagues could take over a lot of what an over-financed and under productive premier academy system fails to deliver and those premier youth squads would have also some positive direction if on Saturday they were going to play in competitive grown-up football .......
I want people to watch lower league games - decent crowds, not the ubiquitous struggle to reach 6,000!
What danger would there be of familiarity in a Conference structure? The top team in every Conference would be promoted. At least two would lose their places. So we would have to re-jig Conference members annually. And in a Conference Trophy teams from different Conferences would meet ....... but you would never get Carlisle travelling to Plymouth on a Tuesday night, because the matches would be weekend.
Whilst I strongly agree with most of what you say Saltergate and Matt we can only change the things we have the opportunity to change, but once they give an inch I'm for edging for a mile ...... that's why I say change and keep on doing it. The lower leagues need to look good, new, fresh and exciting: NOT OLD HAT. Saturday it's Chesterfield away at Bury and you tell ME there's a danger of familiarity! How often have we played each other? To compete for audiences you have to have a worthwhile product. Ours is Woolworths - brutal but true.
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - Devongone - 20-09-2016
My strong disagreements with both of you would come on player quotas. Sky (or any broadcaster) is not a benevolent organisation handing out money to the poor. The Premier League gets the money, because it has some top players involved in competitive and not-totally-predictable games. Viewers want to see Aguero and Hazard, not Joey Allen! 8 Brits per team would solve the problem of where the money trickles to ....... it would stop the money. And it wouldn't significantly improve the progression of young talent, because once the money wasn't there, other sports would be to the fore and a talented youngster would be looking to play a different game .......
A medium-sized club like Southampton has come through with Bale, Lallana, Walcott, Oxlade-Chamberlain, Shaw, Chambers ..... whilst Chelsea and Arsenal, despite vast investment, produce little and ruin a lot. Is Tammy Abraham the next England centre forward due to partner Rashford ...... or is top scorer in the Championship as far as he'll go? Look at all the money top clubs think they spend on developing talent and examine the return. First choice England players - Joe Hart (Shrewsbury), Dele Alli (MKD), John Stones (Barnsley), Jamie Vardy (sent to the steelworks by the Sheffield clubs). That doesn't only say there is something wrong with what the big clubs do, but it also says there's a huge opportunity for the EFL to exploit an area of weakness in the Premier league and PROFIT from it.
I want a Premier League side to field 8 British players not because they are British or black or whatever, but because they are good ..... very, very good.
I can't go for dragging National league sides into more of our cups as they have all the problems of our leagues magnified. Torquay travel to fckuing Gateshead, they can barely afford the bus to Paignton. The "Conference" desperately needs regionalisation and fewer games. Four Conferences perhaps 18 each at that tier, would provide four Champions playing off to get into the League. Difficult to make it, but exciting and a real achievement, not some sham second place play-off to reach the league by not being the best.
And while I'm having my rant - DISABLED ACCESS. No club which delays in providing proper access for reasonable numbers of disabled people to watch games in comfort should be in professional game at all in three year's time. The numbers each club provides should be in direct proportion with its average crowd.
[b]I THOUGHT THIS MIGHT INTEREST YOU:-[b]
I looked at the backgrounds of the ENGLAND squad for the Euros. Less than half started with current Premier League teams.
Forster (Newcastle)
Hart (Shrewsbury)
Heaton (Man Utd, who then let him go!)
Bertrand (Gillingham)
Cahill (AFC Dronfield, then Aston Villa)
Clyne (Crystal Palace)
Rose (Leeds)
Smalling (let go by Millwall, went to Maidstone Utd)
Stones (Barnsley)
Walker (Sheffield Utd)
Alli (Milton Keynes Dons)
Barkley (Everton)
Dier (Sporting CP in Portugal)
Henderson (Sunderland)
Lallana (Bournemouth to Southampton)
Milner (Leeds)
Wilshere (Arsenal)
Kane (Spurs)
Rashford (Man Utd)
Rooney (EVerton)
Sterling (QPR)
Sturridge (Man City)
Vardy (Wednesday to Stocksbridge Park Steels where he was 20 before he made the first team)
If I were picking an England team I wouldn't be looking at most of those clubs, but they might be places you might well see 16 year-olds with a future. It also suggests Premier clubs actually need to have their youngsters play against the Chesterfields AND that Chesterfield really could plug a gap in the market with its own youngsters as well as those who are falling through the net, or have fallen to non-league level.
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - SaltergateBorn - 20-09-2016
How is having 4 conferences going to make the game more 'exciting', Dev?
I agree that the reduced travelling costs would help financially, but I really can`t accept that a lot of supporters would get any more excitement from watching us play Alfreton Town or Nuneaton rather than Bury. Apart from which, manufactured 'excitement' tends to be short-lived. If you want an example of that, look no further than T20 in cricket; that gave 'excitement' and was a roaring success - briefly. A few years later, crowds are no larger than 50 over games and the powers-that-be are having to try to reinvent it to generate more interest. Would it be totally outrageous of me to suggest that they`ll be doing the same thing again in a few years`time?
I know that by now I`m well into the 'reactionary old fart' category, but I really don`t see the point of change for the sake of change when it isn`t going to achieve anything positive in even the medium term. 'Regionalisation' to the extent of going back to the old Third North and Third South might be sound, on the basis that it would allow a reduction in the games played, but realistically expecting lower league teams to be in favour of reducing their gate receipts is a bit like expecting turkeys to vote for Xmas. It`s not gonna happen, unless they see something to offset it - and I don`t think reducing travelling costs a few times a year will cut it. You`ve taken an extreme case by citing Torquay and Carlisle but for clubs reasonably centrally located - like ours - I don`t think the benefits would be that great in relative terms.
If we want to increase interest in the game at grass-roots level, I am convinced that a successful national team is vital. Like me, Dev, you`re old enough to remember the `66 World Cup and the effect that that had on football attendances in this country. 20+ years of gradual but consistent decline in gates was reversed - virtually overnight - and attendances stayed higher until people turned away from the game in the mid 70s because of the moronic behaviour of some 'supporters' and the threat of violence. You say that people want to watch the likes of Aguero; I agree, but he`s not part of the foreign mediocrity that I was talking about. I would always welcome the likes of him, Lionel Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Kevin de Bruyne et al because they undoubtedly add something to our game that our own youngsters could learn from BUT there would still be room for the real stars like them if we had a quota system in place. We would, however, also have room for our own to stand a chance of getting a game at the highest level.
At the end of the day - putting aside for a moment the inarguable fact that all supporters want to see their team win and therefore want them to have better players than everyone else - what would the average football follower in this country really want? If you asked them objectively (and by that I mean ignoring their personal club loyalty), would they rather see 70% (and counting) of players in the Premier League being from overseas, the overwhelming majority of whom couldn`t be mentioned in the same breath as the above, or would they rather have a national team that realistically competes at major tournaments and - God forbid - might actually win one occasionally! Sorry, but I really do think that`s a complete no-brainer.
Again to use cricket as an example, some years ago county teams were flooded with Kolpak players who weren`t England qualified; sadly, Derbyshire was one of the worst offenders. I know it`s not the whole story by any means, but would anyone really argue that the quota system imposed on the counties - and the financial penalties that went with it - encouraged the development of our own players and contributed towards the vastly improved performance of the national team?
As regards nurturing and developing young talent, I still hold to what I said earlier; I really can`t see how restructuring the lower leagues is, in isolation, going to contribute anything at all meaningful towards achieving that.
My typing finger - yes, I only use one - is aching now, so I`m going to give it a rest. Further ramblings may, however, follow at some point.......
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - Devongone - 20-09-2016
I specifically said I don't want Nuneaton or Alfreton. I want Man Utd B, like Real Madrid B!
Four winners of Conferences would be far more exciting than the current stultifying arrangement that reproduces itself ad infinitum to my mind. Reducing the Premiership and Championship would bring eight decent sides into the Conferences and improve competition, then you've got whatever new sides the Premier League might produce with its infinite wealth and access to young players who clearly need something academisation never provides.
If you don't bring in the foreign players with all their glamour, you won't have managers like Guardiola, Conte and Mourinho that everyone wants to hear from, it won't be big news, so Sky won't fund it and it'll be back to Bert Millichip and Bob Lord (Bet Spirematt never heard of them).
Your example of cricket is perfect. Kolpak failed Derbyshire BUT the whole game is trying to reinvent itself. I hate all this wham-bam they play, but at least they are alive and full of ideas.
Our football has a dire structure from the 1960s enlivened by foreign imports and television (and criminal) money. If we leave it like this we will never have a top England team again. We need to change and be ever ready for more change. Look at the bit I added about where the England squad started out - football needs teams like ours, we need to make something of that not sit there waiting for Division 2 to swallow us again.
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - spireitematt - 20-09-2016
(20-09-2016, 16:37)Devongone Wrote: I specifically said I don't want Nuneaton or Alfreton. I want Man Utd B like Real Madrid B!
Playing Premier League B teams in the cups and leagues will make it worse not better Dev. Attendances around the country will fall and then clubs will be on the brink of going under.
Look at the Football League Trophy, they've entered Premier League B teams in and Norwich played Peterborough a few weeks ago and Norwich fielded a French youngster who scored a hat trick against Peterborough. How is fielding a French youngster against Peterborough in the Football League Trophy going to help the National team? It's not! Luton Town got fined for fielding too many youngsters in the Football League Trophy. It's like one rule for them and another for everyone else.
I would rather Chesterfield play the likes of Bury than play Manchester City's under 23 team or whatever there fielding.
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - Devongone - 20-09-2016
I'm not really talking about the idiot B team model we have Checkatraded in, I'm talking about a Manchester City operating a club which runs separately from Manchester City. They wouldn't even have to be young players, but they would be idiotic if they did not seize the opportunity to blood lots of their young pros. Who would you rather see, a journeyman pro' at Newport County, or the boy Man City think might be the new Messi? And surely it's better to see him happily turning out for the club he's chosen than as a loanee at Peterborough where he might hate the place, the people and be playing like a dick?
You are responsible for the French hat-trick at Peterborough Matt not me, you wanted the EEC and free movement of labour n'est ce pas? And anyway who is to say how much playing with the French kid helps all Norwich's young English and Scottish kids? He might be raising their game. Look at the impact Ricky German has on our young players, and he's not even German.
When you talk to fans of clubs in the top divisions a lot of them haven't a clue about who is where lower down the pyramid. The BBC website even quite regularly assigns stories to the wrong division. A couple of seasons ago I was telling our local Newcastle fan that Milton Keynes Dons had a player who would soon be the best in the country. He'd not really heard of him & didn't even know MKD were challenging for a place in the Championship (he did quickly however find out we signed Ched Evans! That kinda news travels!) The impression beyond the bubble of League One and Two clubs is that we're pretty boring and no one much cares. I'm trying to step outside our bubble and take a realistic look in. I've always liked Bury, they gave us Victoria Wood and Elbow, but we're forever playing each other and shuttling up and down the same divisions.
If it looks exciting young fans and players will want to know. They'll see US as a pathway to success. They'll want to sign. Who wouldn't like to play like Dele Alli? 46 games and a couple of bouts of steak-and-kidney-pie food poisoning, well it's grandad, it's whippets, it's a half o' John Smiths. It's stale!
Under the present system if Chesterfield gets itself a good team it might be unlucky enough to do it whilst stranded in Division 2, so we've then got to get promotion in a long hard season, keep that side together, not be tempted to sell our star player, keep the spirit and also improve it a bit and if we are really lucky we might achieve the miracle, not achieved for over 50 years, of the decent level of football called the Championship. Under my proposal to get to the Championship a team like ours would have to be better than just 15 other teams, okay one or two of them would be pretty good, but we wouldn't have to ride the ups and downs of "oh he's only a division two player". We'd improve our standards, because we'd have to. We'd know how good we needed to be.
AND we'd only be fifteen teams from the Championship. It's like only being 24 Hours From Tulsa. Gene Pitney, Matt. Right, who? He's dead.
Love you all dearly. Above all you have the right to be wrong. But if beating 15 other teams to reach The Championship isn't a good idea, advantageous to a club like ours, I'll eat Paddy Ashdown's hat.
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - spireitematt - 21-09-2016
(20-09-2016, 18:40)Devongone Wrote: I'm not really talking about the idiot B team model we have Checkatraded in, I'm talking about a Manchester City operating a club which runs separately from Manchester City. They wouldn't even have to be young players, but they would be idiotic if they did not seize the opportunity to blood lots of their young pros. Who would you rather see, a journeyman pro' at Newport County, or the boy Man City think might be the new Messi? And surely it's better to see him happily turning out for the club he's chosen than as a loanee at Peterborough where he might hate the place, the people and be playing like a dick?
You are responsible for the French hat-trick at Peterborough Matt not me, you wanted the EEC and free movement of labour n'est ce pas? And anyway who is to say how much playing with the French kid helps all Norwich's young English and Scottish kids? He might be raising their game. Look at the impact Ricky German has on our young players, and he's not even German.
When you talk to fans of clubs in the top divisions a lot of them haven't a clue about who is where lower down the pyramid. The BBC website even quite regularly assigns stories to the wrong division. A couple of seasons ago I was telling our local Newcastle fan that Milton Keynes Dons had a player who would soon be the best in the country. He'd not really heard of him & didn't even know MKD were challenging for a place in the Championship (he did quickly however find out we signed Ched Evans! That kinda news travels!) The impression beyond the bubble of League One and Two clubs is that we're pretty boring and no one much cares. I'm trying to step outside our bubble and take a realistic look in. I've always liked Bury, they gave us Victoria Wood and Elbow, but we're forever playing each other and shuttling up and down the same divisions.
If it looks exciting young fans and players will want to know. They'll see US as a pathway to success. They'll want to sign. Who wouldn't like to play like Dele Alli? 46 games and a couple of bouts of steak-and-kidney-pie food poisoning, well it's grandad, it's whippets, it's a half o' John Smiths. It's stale!
Under the present system if Chesterfield gets itself a good team it might be unlucky enough to do it whilst stranded in Division 2, so we've then got to get promotion in a long hard season, keep that side together, not be tempted to sell our star player, keep the spirit and also improve it a bit and if we are really lucky we might achieve the miracle, not achieved for over 50 years, of the decent level of football called the Championship. Under my proposal to get to the Championship a team like ours would have to be better than just 15 other teams, okay one or two of them would be pretty good, but we wouldn't have to ride the ups and downs of "oh he's only a division two player". We'd improve our standards, because we'd have to. We'd know how good we needed to be.
AND we'd only be fifteen teams from the Championship. It's like only being 24 Hours From Tulsa. Gene Pitney, Matt. Right, who? He's dead.
Love you all dearly. Above all you have the right to be wrong. But if beating 15 other teams to reach The Championship isn't a good idea, advantageous to a club like ours, I'll eat Paddy Ashdown's hat.
That idea you have mentioned has been talked about before about Premier League clubs buying a L1/L2 club and then loaning players out to them.
To get our National team competing with the likes of Germany and Spain etc the FA, Premier League and the Government need to invest money into grassroots and facilities, they also need to make UEFA A & B Licenses cheaper like they are in Spain and Germany as we don't have enough coaches in England. Also the way we play in England needs to be looked at as well, we focus too much on fitness where Italy, Spain and Germany focus on ball control and retaining possession.
When we see England play at a tournament or a friendly what do they do? They run out flat for 90 minutes, play long balls and get outplayed and we see it time and time again. Also look at the selection process there were times when all you needed to do was play for Manchester United and you were automatically selected and because a player had 1 good game for West Ham or Southampton the press stop clambering for him to be picked to play for England. Look at the England cricket team that team is pretty much the same starting eleven as always with maybe 1 or 2 changes and it works because they play together all the time so they build up confidence, morale and a rapport.
We won the World Cup in 66 nearly came close in 90 and came close to winning the Euro's in 96 and they said that when the Premier League was set up that it would help the National team and its gone the other way. Changing the structures of the leagues won't help the National team as that has to start right at the bottom at grassroots level.
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - Devongone - 21-09-2016
I absolutely agree grassroots action is vital Matt. We desperately need football fields and children out playing football ..... and adults out there doing it too ..... but structural changes to the pro' game are another pre-requisite because nobody emerges from pub football into the England team ..... even Jamie Vardy (he fought his way through a structure that made every attempt to stop him!)
My use of Torquay as an example was belittled, but the West Country might almost be an island so difficult is it to get a club to thrive. In the Bananarama, Torquay had to choose between a hotel for an over-nighter or a coach for the 228 mile trip to Boreham Wood. Now Barrow is 348 miles, Tranmere 277, Dover, 263, Gateshead 383 Wrexham 243, York 313, North Ferriby 310, Braintree 272, and I can't be arsed to look up Guiseley, Southport, Macclesfield, Chester ..... The West Country is always going to be where it is, but there is no need for the structure of football to take the piss. Impoverished clubs (Forest Green apart) are trying to get back in the league. Dagenham are top and they couldn't afford the league travel last season ...... Regionalisation is simply a must. Chesterfield is lucky with Division One at the moment, but we could get a season where Plymouth, Portsmouth, Colchester, Carlisle, Hartlepool, Yeovil, Newport, Exeter, Southend, and Gillingham joined us in whatever division .... the cost to team and supporter would be unsustainable and it is a system without gain within a BORING and OVERLONG structure.
The structure I suggest is massively favourable to US. Teams who should be against it are struggling Premiership teams and much of the Championship. If the game reformed to 5 simple divisions of 20, the re-organisation, unless it happened on one of our best seasons would put us in the FOURTH of the five divisions. Under my proposal every league club is no more than one step from the Championship, it may be a difficult step, but it is just one brilliant season. However, if the season ended now and we reorganised as I'd like, Huddersfield and Norwich would go up to the Premier, which would mean the bottom four from that division coming down to create the 18 Premiership and Championship teams ...... so relegation for unhappy Bournemouth, West Ham, Sunderland and Stoke. They'd be joined in the Championship by Scunthorpe and Bolton (promoted from Division One) and Newcastle all the way down to Wednesday in the current Championship. The really unhappy clubs joining us in the Conferences but making them very challenging would be Leeds, QPR, Burton, Villa, Preston, Derby, Rotherham, Wigan, Blackburn and Cardiff. They'd kick up a hell of a fuss, but they'd make our programme of 30 games far more exciting than our current 46 .... in my opinion.
For the future, we need to encourage young players to join the smaller clubs. We offer exciting opportunities. At the moment the top clubs cream off the best of the talent at a young age and throw England back a Marcus Rashford once every blue moon. The youth systems of our top clubs provided almost none of the England squad at the last Euros as I showed above. You go to Chelsea at 12 or so to be a star, by the time you are 20 you'll be lucky to be on Chesterfield's bench like Reece Mitchell .... but they had the pick! So we need more of the talent to choose Chesterfields as their future AND we need a way for top clubs to develop those brilliant boys you see at 17 in youth games, displaying real skills, into the players they could be instead of might've -beens by the age of nineteen.
Football is not like Rugby where playing against those physically stronger and older can damage youngsters. Playing against older, bigger kids and then men brings your game on leaps and bounds. You have to be better than them and quicker than them in body and mind. And we don't test young players like this at the moment. We've cottonwooled whole generations like Jack Wilshere; tackle him and he'll be out for the season, but look at him, this is a lad who should be strong, would've been strong ......
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - Dancingwilldoit - 21-09-2016
And the results are in. The status quo wins by a couple of lengths. JPT new format seems really popular http://www.chesterfield-fc.co.uk/news/article/2016-17/chief-executive-gives-reaction-to-fan-survey-3318037.aspx
RE: Whole Game Solution survey (Important) - spireitematt - 21-09-2016
The results seem to be rather interesting. Especially the FA Cup replays.
1. Do you think the EFL needs to be restructured?
- Yes, the EFL requires restructuring 15%
- No, the EFL does not need restructuring 85%
2. Would you support the expansion of the EFL to 80 teams (from its current 72)?
- Yes, I would support this expansion 20%
- No, I would not support this expansion 80%
3. If new teams were introduced to the EFL pyramid, where should they come from?
- The National League 96%
- Premier League under 23 or B teams 0%
- Teams from Scotland or Wales 4%
4. Do you think there are too many fixtures for Chesterfield in a current EFL season?
- Yes, there are currently too many games 9%
- No, there are not too many current games 91%
5. Would you like there to be less midweek games for Chesterfield?
- Yes, it would be better if there were less midweek games 16%
- No, I would not want a reduction in midweek games 84%
6. Should regionalisation into north/south divisions be considered?
- Yes, regionalisation should be considered 25%
- No, regionalisation should not be considered 75%
7. Would you support the introduction of a winter break?
- Yes, I would support a winter break 23%
- No, I would not support a winter break 77%
8. Do you think rounds of the FA Cup should be moved to midweek?
- Yes, they could be moved to midweek 14%
- No, they should not be moved to midweek 86%
9. Should FA Cup replays be scrapped?
- Yes, they should be scrapped 40%
- No, replays should remain 60%
10. What should happen to the Checkatrade Trophy (EFL Trophy) in the future?
- Continue with the competition as it is, with Premier League and Championship sides 6%
- Revert to only having League One and Two clubs 77%
- Scrap the competition 17%