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RE: On political analysis - 0762 - 14-06-2017
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-40267771
Good comments Jim and I concur with that view as it transpires that the Queen's speech is further delayed by a week - the DUP playing 'hardball' and other NI party officials must be having palpitations re such a UK govt association with the DUP - lets call them the 'No surrender Tories' - a very fitting title!!! The UK has been totally 'scunnered' by the populist presence of UKIP coupled with a conservative govt and certain 'lightweight' Prime Ministers who had no backbone and no solid leadership or political astuteness about them whatsoever!! The damage, uncertainty and divisions in the country are immense and radical change has to eventually follow. In Scotland, as said previously, IMO we must eventually move to indy ref 2 and Scotttish Indy although I already notice that the 'unionist forces'', incl certain people within bbc London who fear that process, are coming out with lucrative suggestions that the option of indy ref 2 should now be undemocratically 'taken off the table' even though the SNP hold almost 3x the number of parliamentary seats (+ there is still a huge ground swell of public opinion that the option should 'remain on the table' anyway!!!) than their nearest shameless Scot toerag opponents who are trying to drive through their usual unionist crap with 'Ruth the mooth' leading them!!!
RE: On political analysis - hibeejim21 - 15-06-2017
The tragic events in London just underline how the tories austerity has the British peoples blood on their hands.
We cant go on like this. We need to start investing in our people and public services now...before its gone forever.
RE: On political analysis - 0762 - 15-06-2017
Aye! That tragic fire in Grenfell Tower could result in the end of some political careers incl that of Boris Johnson who doesn't come out of this very well! A whole political ideology re privatisation and saving money/profiteering, spanning back to the Thatcher years, has been exposed and the use of cheap poor spec cladding and windows reeks of the worst side of this flawed ideology and innocent poor people have been the victims again. Corbyn must eventually 'get his teeth into' this disgraceful episode like a rampaging rottweiler once the formal investigations are over and the scathing criticisms unfold.
RE: On political analysis - St Charles Owl - 15-06-2017
I'm not convinced this can be solely blamed on the current government or the current economy. I work in the construction industry here in the US, and over here in most big cities any building over a certain height (80ft in Chicago and most CA cities) must be built with a fire sprinkler system, this law has been in place in Chicago since 1975!!! But even then a lot of these residential towers were built in the 1960s so even here they would not have sprinklers and I would assume that is the case in the UK.
Irrespective of whether these towers are council or privately owned, the reluctance of successive governments to implement mandatory sprinkler systems means these buildings remain death traps when a fire does occur. Retrofitting a sprinkler system in these type of buildings is first of all very difficult from a construction perspective and the cost is enormous, something that neither a council nor private owner would be able to afford. This building also had only one staircase for means of egress, again this is now not allowed by construction codes and in New York for example you will see external fire escapes to meet these codes in older buildings but that is not practical in these type of high rises.
The best solution for these buildings is to demolish them and build buildings that meet the current fire standards, but as these tend to be used for housing of poorer tenants there is no ability on behalf of the council or private owner to pay for this outlay without government money to help cover the cost. Better fire alarms, fire retardant materials, fire rated walls, windows and doors etc certainly help contain fires but when a fire gets hold above the 10th floor in these types of building there is little the fire brigade can do to fight the fire effectively without a sprinkler system being installed, and that will not happen and therefore this potential tragedy will not go away unless these building are pulled down. But who is going to pay for that??
Governments going back to the 1970s must take part of the blame for these events, not just this current one.
RE: On political analysis - 0762 - 16-06-2017
I don't quite agree with that view SCO. I have also worked in the construction, roads and transport industry for a very long time and there are some scathing criticisms and facts which will eventually unfold re incidents like this one. Grenfell Tower was refurbished in 2016 in a joint exercise between the conservative K&C Council and the Tenants' Management Organisation (private group) to the tune of £10M. Sure, the building was not the best of designs but the Fire Brigade expert opinion confirms that this fire should never have spread like this one and the initial fire in a 4th floor flat should have been isolated from the rest of the building. Did you know that a sprinkler system alone would have cost £200k but not implemented after previous scathing comments and recommendations from a London Coroner re a fire in Southwork! Also I'll wager a wad of money that cost cutting measures were applied on this project and the use of a fully accountable Clerk(s) of Works, to oversee the use properly specified materials and the work itself, is highly debatable. Done it, seen it and 'professional accountability and good practise' are the key words in this debate!! I acknowledge the weakness of a single staircase fire exit but safety could still be greatly improved in such a scenario and Fire Brigade experts have confirmed that fact as well.
RE: On political analysis - St Charles Owl - 16-06-2017
(16-06-2017, 01:24)0762 Wrote: I don't quite agree with that view SCO. I have also worked in the construction, roads and transport industry for a very long time and there are some scathing criticisms and facts which will eventually unfold re incidents like this one. Grenfell Tower was refurbished in 2016 in a joint exercise between the conservative K&C Council and the Tenants' Management Organisation (private group) to the tune of £10M. Sure, the building was not the best of designs but the Fire Brigade expert opinion confirms that this fire should never have spread like this one and the initial fire in a 4th floor flat should have been isolated from the rest of the building. Did you know that a sprinkler system alone would have cost £200k but not implemented after previous scathing comments and recommendations from a London Coroner re a fire in Southwork! Also I'll wager a wad of money that cost cutting measures were applied on this project and the use of a fully accountable Clerk(s) of Works, to oversee the use properly specified materials and the work itself, is highly debatable. Done it, seen it and 'professional accountability and good practise' are the key words in this debate!! I acknowledge the weakness of a single staircase fire exit but safety could still be greatly improved in such a scenario and Fire Brigade experts have confirmed that fact as well.
Don't disagree with any of that, but my point was that multiple Governments from both parties have failed to properly address these type of buildings and the fire hazards they are, this can't be laid just at the feet of the current government. Property Managers, whether public or private will bring buildings up to code when they work on them, but if the code is not sufficient to properly protect the inhabitants then that becomes the responsibility of the Government, and those codes have not been updated sufficiently by successive governments.
RE: On political analysis - 0762 - 16-06-2017
I differ in the fact the flawed business ideology that conservative politicians have sold down the years particularly the greed and profiteering at all cost, the 'me me me culture that consequently breeds corruption and 'short cut methods' that big businesses do apply and I believe conservative people (not all of them) are aware of these kinda misdemeanours but their ideolgy is flawed IMO and engenders this kinda wrong culture that damages this country. I acknowledge it does not totally apply to Tory govs but I think historically the Tories have been the biggest offenders.
RE: On political analysis - hibeejim21 - 16-06-2017
The tories have impaired and voted down labours attempts to ensure tenants get safe accommodation. 70 of them landlords themselves.
The cladding was done on the cheap,we know that now. How anyone can say this isn't to do with the gov is beyond me.
RE: On political analysis - St Charles Owl - 16-06-2017
(16-06-2017, 15:16)hibeejim21 Wrote: The tories have impaired and voted down labours attempts to ensure tenants get safe accommodation. 70 of them landlords themselves.
The cladding was done on the cheap,we know that now. How anyone can say this isn't to do with the gov is beyond me.
I don't think anyone has said this isn't to do with the Government, it is everything to do with the government. My point was its not just this current one we have. Labour under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were in power for 10 years from 1997 - 2007, they are just as culpable for not dealing with this problem as much as the Tory governments on each side of them. Fire safety in high rise buildings was an issue right back into the 70s and while a lot has been done to improve the fire rating of these buildings, this weeks tragic events show it is still not enough, and that is successive Governments fault.
The inquiry into this fire will no doubt highlight some of the issues these building present, it will probably show poor material choice and as you say doing things on the cheap and if thats the case it will also show some negligence on behalf of the Council and its inspection proceedures as well. While you cannot do anything about the loss of life in this fire, it will then be up to the government to make sure the building codes are updated and then more crucially fully enforced.
RE: On political analysis - hibeejim21 - 16-06-2017
I agree,but you have to look at things in context.The bigger picture so to speak.
We are seeing the consequences of the 'vital' austerity (which apparently can be junked the second the Tories sense they might actually lose power over it).
Police cuts = greater threat of terrorism
Landlord MPs voting against rudimentary safety standards = the appalling events of earlier this week.
General austerity = people eventually rising up against the establishment continually telling us that things are getting better despite us seeing our pay packets cut month by month and inflation creeping up.
The chickens are coming home to roost, via deregulation,privatisation and austerity and the failings of new labour are neither here nor there.