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+----- Thread: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread (/showthread.php?tid=10038)
RE: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread - BaggieSteve - 03-01-2021
Unlike Slick, I felt the sacking of Bilic was disgraceful, both in its manner and in its timing. Likewise, I felt the subsequent appointment of Allardyce was both desperate and misplaced. Right now, accepting only four games in, I have not changed my opinion: for me, this is like rewatching history- Pardew 2, The Allardyce Years. How long did it take us to work out that Pardew was both a mistake and a fraud? The difference being that all of us were glad to see the back of Pulis.
However, I’m not an apologist for Bilic who I feel made several errors in his time with us; like most I got highly frustrated with selections and substitutions. However, regarding his transfers I would largely- not wholly - exonerate him. When he was appointed, he was told it was a two years goal to achieve promotion. He did it in one with a team that just about got over the line. I think it was obvious to all of us - including him - that this was a championship level squad that, without serious investment, could not survive, let alone thrive, in the EPL. It was reminiscent of our first promotion under Megson - a lightweight team that did well to get promotion but would struggle. In the absence of any meaningful investment, Bilic resorted to those he knew and who had performed in the Championship, and let’s be honest, we were highly pleased when he signed both Pereira and Diangana permanently- the latter has been highly disappointing but that’s not what we, or Bilic, expected; unfortunately he also used up a big chunk of a very small transfer budget. I totally agree with Slick that Bilic should have prioritised a strong central midfielder, that is an area where we are being slaughtered every week, and that our defence is either inexperienced or just poor. Ivanovic was intended to bring the experience but he’s way past even being effective. Watching him against Aubameyang last night was embarrassing. As for a decent/half decent striker, we got what we paid for - a championship performer being asked to make a step up beyond his ability. However, I’m struggling to know who else would have been effective for that budget.
In the end, I think our problems go far deeper than Bilic or Allardyce; there us a systemic issue running through the club that is driven by an owner who has little interest in either the club he owns or the sport it plays. Peace had been trying to sell the club for years, his only ambition was to stay in the EPL to maximise his investment and its sale. He never moved us forward, hence his employment of Pulis way beyond his sell by date - “never been relegated” was a positive to attract a buyer. It failed. The same mentality has been used in the appointment of Allardyce...I fear this will also fail.
If it does fail, I would blame neither Bilic nor Allardyce. In my opinion, the fault lies squarely with Lai and his team of nodding dogs. I feel our relegation was assured before we kicked off against Leicester. There is an old saying - you probably know it - that “a fish rots from the head”, I think this so applies to us
Apologies for such a long post: also I apologise to Slick if he felt I was having a go at him personally. I honestly wasn’t; we may disagree over how we see things but I fully respect his opinions and his passion for the club.
RE: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread - Salopbaggie - 03-01-2021
There is an mood of doom and gloom and it is full justifiable, but lets not give up just yet, we are only 3 wins from safety.
In terms of the quality of our summer purchases, that was not totally down to Bilic, as keeps being referred to. I did not see many posts shouting don't buy Grady and Pereira their not the quality we need. The problem is, it is no use going to a Rolls Royce showroom with the money to buy a Mini and expect a top line car, if you do you will be lucky to get the exhaust falling off, 5,000,000 miles on the clock, part-ex wreck, that's parked out the back. Quality costs and if you are buying a player with known ability they are not cheap. Nor is it any use blaming the people charged with finding and signing these players, the same applies to them. I am sure that Dowling would have loved to have been in a position to say, "Ollie Watkins how much? Yeh we'll have him and we will have that Benrahma chap as well." Imagine going to your local town centre and be given £2.00 to buy a fillet steak it is doable but you are not going to get much for your money.
I am not saying the club should go get into massive debt, but I am saying you pay peanuts, you get monkeys and there is a halfway house between the two points.
RE: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread - Slick_Footwork - 03-01-2021
(03-01-2021, 13:04)BaggieSteve Wrote: Unlike Slick, I felt the sacking of Bilic was disgraceful, both in its manner and in its timing. Likewise, I felt the subsequent appointment of Allardyce was both desperate and misplaced. Right now, accepting only four games in, I have not changed my opinion: for me, this is like rewatching history- Pardew 2, The Allardyce Years. How long did it take us to work out that Pardew was both a mistake and a fraud? The difference being that all of us were glad to see the back of Pulis.
However, I’m not an apologist for Bilic who I feel made several errors in his time with us; like most I got highly frustrated with selections and substitutions. However, regarding his transfers I would largely- not wholly - exonerate him. When he was appointed, he was told it was a two years goal to achieve promotion. He did it in one with a team that just about got over the line. I think it was obvious to all of us - including him - that this was a championship level squad that, without serious investment, could not survive, let alone thrive, in the EPL. It was reminiscent of our first promotion under Megson - a lightweight team that did well to get promotion but would struggle. In the absence of any meaningful investment, Bilic resorted to those he knew and who had performed in the Championship, and let’s be honest, we were highly pleased when he signed both Pereira and Diangana permanently- the latter has been highly disappointing but that’s not what we, or Bilic, expected; unfortunately he also used up a big chunk of a very small transfer budget. I totally agree with Slick that Bilic should have prioritised a strong central midfielder, that is an area where we are being slaughtered every week, and that our defence is either inexperienced or just poor. Ivanovic was intended to bring the experience but he’s way past even being effective. Watching him against Aubameyang last night was embarrassing. As for a decent/half decent striker, we got what we paid for - a championship performer being asked to make a step up beyond his ability. However, I’m struggling to know who else would have been effective for that budget.
In the end, I think our problems go far deeper than Bilic or Allardyce; there us a systemic issue running through the club that is driven by an owner who has little interest in either the club he owns or the sport it plays. Peace had been trying to sell the club for years, his only ambition was to stay in the EPL to maximise his investment and its sale. He never moved us forward, hence his employment of Pulis way beyond his sell by date - “never been relegated” was a positive to attract a buyer. It failed. The same mentality has been used in the appointment of Allardyce...I fear this will also fail.
If it does fail, I would blame neither Bilic nor Allardyce. In my opinion, the fault lies squarely with Lai and his team of nodding dogs. I feel our relegation was assured before we kicked off against Leicester. There is an old saying - you probably know it - that “a fish rots from the head”, I think this so applies to us
Apologies for such a long post: also I apologise to Slick if he felt I was having a go at him personally. I honestly wasn’t; we may disagree over how we see things but I fully respect his opinions and his passion for the club.
No need to apologise. It's always good to have a football debate.
To tell the truth we probably agree on a lot more than we realise. I'd say your post is pretty much bang on.
The reality is, in order to thrive in the Premier League after promotion, you either need to be very well backed or conduct close to perfect business in the transfer market.
I'm someone that demands that perfection, which is why I was critical of Bilic's / Downling's player prioritisation in the transfer market. The constant pursuit of Krovinovic was the thing that really frustrated me, because I simply didn't see what he brought to the party last year. I am envious of Fulham's business, acquiring 2 powerful and athletic full backs, an international centre half and proven defensive midfielder who knows the league, all for next to nothing. I keep thinking if only we used that midfield loan on Mario Lemina rather than Krovinovic, the season could look so much different...
But that said, exceptional transfer business isn't the norm and I'm probably wrong to expect it...
We have seen several times before that you can spend 4-5x the cash that we have spent and still be relegated or close. Fulham were relegated the season before last after spending £100m and Villa should've been relegated last season while spending about the same. The goal line tech failure kept Villa up.
So while I think our £30m outlay could've been distributed better, I know that this amount of backing from the board (or lack of it) will probably lead to relegation 99 times out of 100..
In fact, I posted after the Hegazi sale that we would get what we deserved this season - as a club, not as fans - and that would be relegation. That was regardless of who the manager is. I think when you're selling one of the few experienced players you have after the window is closed, it sums up the ambition of the club.
When Allardyce was appointed my feeling was that desperate times called for desperate measures. I do feel he has more credentials than Pardew who had a much superior and experienced squad to work with in truth. I actually remember being attacked on this forum for referring to Pardew as a "clown" after 3 matches in charge LOL. I only hope that if we are relegated - which is starting to feel inevitable regardless of who is in charge - is that our squad does not get decimated. That was my fear from the start which the financial implications of covid and why I felt we needed an Allardyce to at least give us hope of grafting our way to survival. While Lai is rightly criticised in most cases, we did keep the majority of the squad together after our previous relegation. I just have the fear we will sell everyone this time along with several being out of contract.
RE: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread - BaggieSteve - 03-01-2021
Slick, I think you’re fear of an end-of-season relevancies sale is correct. The few players who may have managed to either enhance or, at least, not trashed their reputation will go, together with those who may be seen to have under performed but who have potential. So, I’d expect to lose Johnstone, Ajayi, O’Shea, Pereira and Diangana. Gallagher and Krovinovic will leave, as loan players, and we’ll be left with the rest. It’s not an appetising prospect
RE: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread - BaggieSteve - 03-01-2021
(03-01-2021, 14:52)BaggieSteve Wrote: Slick, I think you’re fear of an end-of-season relevancies sale is correct. The few players who may have managed to either enhance or, at least, not trashed their reputation will go, together with those who may be seen to have under performed but who have potential. So, I’d expect to lose Johnstone, Ajayi, O’Shea, Pereira and Diangana. Gallagher and Krovinovic will leave, as loan players, and we’ll be left with the rest. It’s not an appetising prospect
I’ve just reread my post! What the hell is a relevancies sale? I meant to type ‘relegation’. Never let an old fella near to a keyboard with predictive text!
RE: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread - WBA-Josh - 03-01-2021
(03-01-2021, 23:03)BaggieSteve Wrote: I’ve just reread my post! What the hell is a relevancies sale? I meant to type ‘relegation’. Never let an extremely old, ancient fossil near to a keyboard with predictive text!
I've fixed it for you Steve.
RE: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread - BaggieSteve - 04-01-2021
(03-01-2021, 23:29)WBA-Josh Wrote:(03-01-2021, 23:03)BaggieSteve Wrote: I’ve just reread my post! What the hell is a relevancies sale? I meant to type ‘relegation’. Never let an extremely old, ancient fossil near to a keyboard with predictive text!
I've fixed it for you Steve.
Oi!
RE: WBA Xmas/New Year Thread - Salopbaggie - 04-01-2021
(03-01-2021, 23:03)BaggieSteve Wrote:(03-01-2021, 14:52)BaggieSteve Wrote: Slick, I think you’re fear of an end-of-season relevancies sale is correct. The few players who may have managed to either enhance or, at least, not trashed their reputation will go, together with those who may be seen to have under performed but who have potential. So, I’d expect to lose Johnstone, Ajayi, O’Shea, Pereira and Diangana. Gallagher and Krovinovic will leave, as loan players, and we’ll be left with the rest. It’s not an appetising prospect
I’ve just reread my post! What the hell is a relevancies sale? I meant to type ‘relegation’. Never let an old fella near to a keyboard with predictive text!
Well I quite like the idea of a relevancies sale, so there
Not relevant to the club your sold on, hopefully starting with the owner, he is certainly irrelevant to me..