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RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 10-01-2019
(10-01-2019, 19:55)Devongone Wrote: Do you really think May was a Remainer, or even is a Remainer?
Do you really think Corbyn is a Remainer? He certainly was absolutely anti-EU whilst Tony Benn was alive. But then so was John McDonnell! And I have to admit to being baffled by how many Momentum supporters are Remainers - I know a lot of them being young have never known anything else - but I cannot see how any of the ambitions of a growing EU can contribute to the achievement of socialism. It is hard enough to see how voting Labour and joining the party achieves that goal!
But you're right, everyone had a different vision of what Brexit was and what it might be like, because there'd never been a Frexit or a Grexit, or a Spexit before. I don't see anything particularly abhorrent in asking the peoples' opinion again. But equally you could make all the same arguments about any election we've ever had. No one ever knew what it would mean and they were always lied to and governments either ignored or twisted every promise made .............
Significantly in the past when we've faced important questions like should Capital Punishment be discontinued we haven't asked the people ........ because politicians knew the people would give the answer they thought was wrong and bind them forever. But where that thought leads us I've no idea.
I certainly can't see how the path opens up for us not to leave the EU, but I've great faith that the voice of Capital will eventually outweigh the voice of the people or democracy.
May certainly was a remainer,and has only grasped the Brexit nettle because of her lust for power. Corbyn is clearly ambivalent about the whole thing, which is xxxx incredible really.
Socialism is entirely possible within the EU, Portugal are proving that right now. You should listen to David lammy's speech from today - he makes it clear that there is no left wing case for Brexit.
Have you seen the amount of job losses and relocations already ?
(10-01-2019, 21:58)spireitematt Wrote: The problem with another referendum or people's vote is the first referendum was so divisive that another referendum could be worse.
The demographics will keep changing as well. You could ask the question in 5 years time and it could be remain and you could ask the question in 10 years time and it could be leave. Young people are very left wing but when they mature and grow up they move towards centre and then to the right.
Everyone voted Remain and Leave for different reasons. Some voted Remain to carry on with the status quo, some voted Remain because they would like to see a Federal Europe and some voted Remain because they are Eurosceptic but believe we could try and reform it from the inside. Some voted Leave because they want to come out of the EU altogether, some voted Leave because of immigration, some voted Leave because they don't want to be part of a Federal Europe.
If the ardent Remainers want to win a 2nd referendum or a "people's vote" instead of looking down on people who voted Leave calling them "racists", "bigots", "didn't know what they were voting for" etc they need to debate them and get them to come round to there way of thinking. This is why Leave and Trump won because instead of debating one another like grown ups they call each other names and abuse each other and this happens on the left and the right.
The problem with the referendum that happened was that it was completely rigged and definitely had a foreign nations interference.
There isn't going to be another referendum, not because it would be unfair or undemocratic because the disaster capitalists, tax dodgers and currency speculators have long dreamt of this moment and are holding the tory party hostage.
Agree with your wider point on engagement, but it cuts both ways. I happen to believe that the Brexit vote was largely driven by bigotry and ignorance and the evidence certainly largely points that way.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - spireitematt - 11-01-2019
(10-01-2019, 23:53)hibeejim21 Wrote:(10-01-2019, 19:55)Devongone Wrote: Do you really think May was a Remainer, or even is a Remainer?
Do you really think Corbyn is a Remainer? He certainly was absolutely anti-EU whilst Tony Benn was alive. But then so was John McDonnell! And I have to admit to being baffled by how many Momentum supporters are Remainers - I know a lot of them being young have never known anything else - but I cannot see how any of the ambitions of a growing EU can contribute to the achievement of socialism. It is hard enough to see how voting Labour and joining the party achieves that goal!
But you're right, everyone had a different vision of what Brexit was and what it might be like, because there'd never been a Frexit or a Grexit, or a Spexit before. I don't see anything particularly abhorrent in asking the peoples' opinion again. But equally you could make all the same arguments about any election we've ever had. No one ever knew what it would mean and they were always lied to and governments either ignored or twisted every promise made .............
Significantly in the past when we've faced important questions like should Capital Punishment be discontinued we haven't asked the people ........ because politicians knew the people would give the answer they thought was wrong and bind them forever. But where that thought leads us I've no idea.
I certainly can't see how the path opens up for us not to leave the EU, but I've great faith that the voice of Capital will eventually outweigh the voice of the people or democracy.
May certainly was a remainer,and has only grasped the Brexit nettle because of her lust for power. Corbyn is clearly ambivalent about the whole thing, which is xxxx incredible really.
Socialism is entirely possible within the EU, Portugal are proving that right now. You should listen to David lammy's speech from today - he makes it clear that there is no left wing case for Brexit.
Have you seen the amount of job losses and relocations already ?
(10-01-2019, 21:58)spireitematt Wrote: The problem with another referendum or people's vote is the first referendum was so divisive that another referendum could be worse.
The demographics will keep changing as well. You could ask the question in 5 years time and it could be remain and you could ask the question in 10 years time and it could be leave. Young people are very left wing but when they mature and grow up they move towards centre and then to the right.
Everyone voted Remain and Leave for different reasons. Some voted Remain to carry on with the status quo, some voted Remain because they would like to see a Federal Europe and some voted Remain because they are Eurosceptic but believe we could try and reform it from the inside. Some voted Leave because they want to come out of the EU altogether, some voted Leave because of immigration, some voted Leave because they don't want to be part of a Federal Europe.
If the ardent Remainers want to win a 2nd referendum or a "people's vote" instead of looking down on people who voted Leave calling them "racists", "bigots", "didn't know what they were voting for" etc they need to debate them and get them to come round to there way of thinking. This is why Leave and Trump won because instead of debating one another like grown ups they call each other names and abuse each other and this happens on the left and the right.
The problem with the referendum that happened was that it was completely rigged and definitely had a foreign nations interference.
There isn't going to be another referendum, not because it would be unfair or undemocratic because the disaster capitalists, tax dodgers and currency speculators have long dreamt of this moment and are holding the tory party hostage.
Agree with your wider point on engagement, but it cuts both ways. I happen to believe that the Brexit vote was largely driven by bigotry and ignorance and the evidence certainly largely points that way.
The relocation's were happening when we were in the EU as well. Job losses have happened when we've been in the EU and there'll more than likely happen when we leave as well.
What about the Government using £9 million of taxpayers money to create and print out a leaflet to every house in the country in favour of Remain but was never included in the budget for the Remain campaign?
Don't all our elections have interference by a certain media mogul?
There could be another referendum but it would cause more division in this country and I think a lot of people don't want to go through it all over again.
Well that's your opinion but I don't agree with it.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 11-01-2019
You are entitled to your opinion, mines is based in actual documented facts though.
Let's be clear about this, the government was not meant to be neutral with the Brexit vote, Cameron took the view that we would be better off, safer and stronger inside a reformed Europe and were entitled as the democratically elected government to set out their view as government have done in every referendum we've had, going all the way back to the original European referendum back in 1975.
As for your comment about relocations and job losses, your complacency is incredible. Sure its happened before and always will, just not in the potential case of a huge chunk of our GDP going out the door.
If you are cool with a dictator like Putin and his agents interfering in a UK election to promote their own agenda then fair enough.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 11-01-2019
IMO another referendum is definitely on because it is democratic to force this and because of the political circumstances and the prevailing impasse. Also this year is not 2016! Three years later many, many millions of people within our voting population have been enlightened "big time" and what was effectively a split vote to leave in 2016 will not be that same vote in 2019 if it was staged. The remain vote will win it and that is the main point to make that the 2016 vote is gone and I wish these shameless backers of brexit, Tories etc, would stop referring to this 52% as their justification to proceed "into the mire" as it has become clear for a long time that the status quo is theeee best option for future economic progress. Divisive or not, the impasse must be broken by the people!! It is a pity that the UK population was not better informed in 2016 because if the remain vote had prevailed, the status quo would've continued with nothing like the shit and disruption that has been going on and on and on and on......for over two years - an absolute ####### disgrace with even one poor MP's life lost in the process!!!
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 12-01-2019
Latest figures suggest may is going to lose this vote on Tuesday very heavily indeed. Heavy enough to normally provoke a resignation, but I doubt very much may will.
I don't buy this 'divisive' pish about another referendum, not many people cared much about the EU prior to the referendum. Whats middle England going to do ? leave the top off the toothpaste in protest ?
That said maybe its possible that you can respect the result and still remain. Firstly it was basically a 50/50 split, so no firm decision for either option. Add in those that did not vote and those that could not vote and any option is difficult to say this is the will of the people.
Secondly, leave sold so many differing options, all incompatible with each other. Most leave voters find some leave options distasteful, they only approve of options like the ones they wanted. Irrespective of the fact that many false projections were made any leave option will only respect the desires of part of the 52%. It really is no mandate for sweeping change. Leave got many of its votes against austerity, Cameron, poverty, the status quo, and of course us having too many Eastern Europeans.
Thirdly, Theresa insists it is all about immigration (and lets face it she's probably right). If this is true then the UK could remain and introduce and enforce the options that are currently legally available within the EU to reduce immigration from the EU. The UK has always had control of non EU immigration.
The only way out of this logjam is for parliament to endorse changes to the UK's position to assuage many aspects of 'leave' whilst remaining within the EU rules and within the EU. Thats going to take time so article 50 is going to have to be delayed and a different version of mays deal put together. I know it's a long shot, but its either that or another vote.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 15-01-2019
I noticed that bbc Reporting Scotland also uses the Theresa May quote about adhering to the referendum result but of course fails to mention the '79 vote on Scottish devolution that was rejected or the fact that May voted against the Scottish parliament after the massive majority for devolution in '97. Any broadcaster who doesn’t inform their viewing/listening customers of the full, proper impartial news and analysis is as corrupt as the person who is uttering this shit!!
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 15-01-2019
As expected, the Tory govt and their Brexit deal rejected in parliament but by a massive 230 votes - unprecedented in British politics!! Not a small defeat either!! Corbyn already in with a motion of "no confidence" in this UK govt to be debated tomorrow. I'm just listening to a wee nyaff of a Tory spokesman, Matt Hancock, talking to the bbc re this defeat and it is utter drivel with no real plan B + no substance to his solution of going back to the EU! I wonder if a national emergency gov, with allied political parties attached to Labour, could be key to wresting power from this govt!!!??? Again, this would be unprecedented but possible!!
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 16-01-2019
I guess Corbyn had to go for it with the scale of that defeat, but I can't see him toppling may, he just doesn't have the numbers.
Some kind of Brexit that labour MPs can vote for will be the direction of travel once a50 gets extended.
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - 0762 - 16-01-2019
But there is no proper half way house Brexit deal that gets even close to the current one - that is the reality of the situation. Plus parliament is unanimously against a "no deal" outcome!
RE: European Union Referendum - In or Out?? - hibeejim21 - 16-01-2019
I know, but it doesn't matter. They both know they have to deliver some form of Brexit.
Enough MPs will coalesce around some version of the Withdrawal agreement eventually.