I think the SNP will still 'bide their time' to wait for the 'mood' of the Scottish people to change significantly enough SCO before making any move for a 2nd referendum. It's already happening as attitudes and debate are starting to 'gather pace' and many people in Scotland, not all naturally pro indy btw, are becoming part of that debate. There are organised pro indy marches spread throughout Scotland. Also SNP membership has risen by just under 10k in the past week for obvious reasons and it is reckoned that support for Scot indy has consequently risen to 49% of the Scottish voting population. Many diehard SNP supporters want it to happen before the end of this year and certain pivotal political events at Westminster could poss make it happen. However, I think the SNP leadership want a reasonable 'groundswell' of opinion to develop and keep developing alongside the momentum of pro indy rallies which have been organised outwith the control of the SNP and the Scottish govt. IMO the Tory attacks on devolution itself have been a 'fatal error' (or deliberate!) because a huge percentage of the Scottish people (approx. 85%) are unanimously in favour of an effective devolved Scottish government. But PATIENCE IS A VIRTUE and timing is paramount - poss even moving into 2019 at some pt.
If the Supreme Court overrules Scots law, and sides with WM, the Union is over regardless of referendums..The SC does not have legal authority to over rule Scots Law.
Why not ?
2 reasons.
1. Scots law is protected "in perpetuity" by the Act and Treaties of Union itself. Subjugation of Scots Law or Scots people's sovereignty, which is enshrined in Scots Law, is illegal under the Act of Union.
2. The critical bit. The Continuity Bill legislates in the area of DEVOLVED POWERS using Scots Law.
If the supreme court rules with westminster in late july, the union is done for. If they rule for the scottish gov then sturgeon has the ammunition following that. Independence is only a matter of time now.
Again none of this is scotlands fault. . We have been treated with total disrespect,everything we were told that was bad and would happen with a yes vote has happened anyway. The polls show england value brexit over the union. They have lost sight completely, and with that loss of sight they have lost their minds.
Yes, it's all starting to get rather "interesting" now following on from the racing certainty that the Tories are going to make a complete balls-up over Brexit.
However, apart from the pathetic walk-out by the SNP (cupid stunts as only they can be), whose sole purpose in Westminster seems to be to pick a fight with the Tories and the House of Commons processes, Westminster can't do much more at the moment. The SNP MPs should be sent back to the playground where they obviously belong. Oh, the hypocrisy of the SNP who claim to be "standing up for Scotland" when they are only too keen to stage a walk-out instead of standing their corner.
The fact that the SNP's complaint of a "power grab" by Westminster can't possibly take place until the UK formally leaves the EU (whenever that might be) and even then they are ensuring that Westminster will put Scotland at the end of the queue when those devolved powers are due to be given back. Just in case anyone is unsure of the situation, it's the UK that is a member of the EU, not Scotland, so the powers currently held by the EU must be returned to the UK. I also find it strange that the SNP complain bitterly about a Westminster "power grab" but apparently have no quibble about the EU having those powers just now. But there again they are only interested in separation, nothing else matters to their narrow minds, even although they claim that only the UK is inward looking.
I believe that Scotland is ready for independence but I despair at the current SNP hierarchy's hypocrisy and deliberate awkwardness. They're not fit to run a country mile, never mind a country.
I totally agree with Jim about the Supreme Court. They only have jurisdiction over England and Wales, not Scotland. The Tories are also going to make a balls-up of devolution - just a continuation of their current inability to get anything right.
A pathetic walk out??? That's a tad strong ritchie TBF. The SNP have been 'shat on' for months n months and I can say that with qualification as I've observed many of the disrespectful parliamentary shenanigans down the months in live televised excerpts - absolutely disgraceful! Of course there was an element of orchestration re this 'walk out' but it was coming and it was inevitable that the 'shit was gonna hit the fan'! I also suggest you read some of the subsequent worst, racist anti Scottish press comments you could ever imagine in the usual RW shitheid English tabloids!!! Again disgraceful and reminiscent of Germany in the 1930s!!!!. The SNP's mandate has always been to eventually negotiate self-determination for Scotland. Narrow-minded to set a quest for eventual Scot indy??? Why?? A form of devolution has gradually evolved after decades n decades of angst and antagonism from the British state/govt and even a typical rejection of a slim majority Yes vote for devolution in the late 1970s. I certainly disagree with that opinion that the SNP does not represent the interests of the Scottish people and Scotland. Clearly not the interests of everyone in Scotland but 'that's life' in any country. I am not a natural SNP supporter but I share that ethos for the betterment of my country!!! Who else would currently represent the interests of the Scottish people with such conviction?? The Tories??? The fragmented Labour party? All shameless unionists (and lets include the Libdems in that shameless 'nest of vipers') who spout shit at every opportunity in a great effort to remove the SNP with their shameless RW media cohorts continuously 'under orders' to 'peddle their shit' - how tiresome!! Surely you can't be party to that kinda nonsense although you clearly don't want independence and poss still wanna leave the EU as it transpires that an even higher proportion of the Scottish people wanna remain in the EU than the previous 62% who voted 'remain' in the referendum vote. Where is this SNP hypocrisy with such a high backing to currently remain with the EU? And btw that EU status could still be changed by a post indy Scottish govt if EU membership was attained - we'd still always have the option to leave but IMO that would be dependent on the majority opinion/vote of the Scottish people anyway.
I still stand by my interpretation of the current SNP tactic of deliberately trying to pick a fight with the Tories and the House Of Commons, in an attempt to stir up the most vociferous and radical elements within their organisation and gain similar-thinking extra members.
The SNP are hypocrites because they criticise the Tories for not being willing to come to a deal over the devolved areas of Brexit, while they are in exactly the same position. The stupid walk-out was hardly going to influence anybody other than like-minded people who like that type of petty playground behaviour. It certainly shows how unsuitable the current SNP are for independent government and almost makes me want to have Alex Salmond back. Conviction of your cause is not enough on it's own, you need to have moderation and diplomacy to convince others that your cause is just and reasonable.
Other than that, I have sympathy with a lot of what you say, if not the depth of anger. Don't forget that Angus Robertson, Alex Salmond and 19 other SNP MPs lost their seats in the last UK General Election and Ian Blackford (Angus Robertson Mk2) could end up the same if he doesn't get himself sorted out. Even the seats the SNP held in 2017 were with reduced majorities - that's Scottish votes, remember - so learn the lesson and don't blame the lapsed voters.
Contrary to what you think, I do support Scottish Independence, just not with Nicola at the helm. I still support Brexit for various reasons, but the Brexit I voted for will not be delivered by Theresa May, as she is following John Major's policy of trying to please too many factions within her own party, instead of trying to build a concensus for her own ideas. Your last clause hits the nail on the head - accept that the SNP lost the vote on the 2014 Independence Referendum and the 2017 UK General Election and try to improve their standing for future votes, not go back over old ground that has bogged you down in the past.
I know you won't agree with me but that's fine by me. It's democracy at work.
I certainly disagree re what you are saying about the 'walk out' and it's clear you have a major gripe against the SNP/Nicola Sturgeon and that's your opinion. My opinion is different and based on many scenarios that I have observed where the SNP, SNP govt, MPs and many supportive Scots have been 'baited' and disrespected for a long time - RETROSPECTIVELY 'LOOKING FOR A FIGHT' ehhhhh!!!!! What's your problem if you can't see that!? Last week's shenanigans in the parliamentary chamber were not just about the 'walk out' but the clear demotion of an isolated and demoted David Mundell whose representation was replaced by a real Tory elite ersehole, a posh boy called David Lidington, a contemptuous 15 min debating moron with no respect for Scotland or being an equal partner and he's not the only one!! But all of this is about more than one man and his failings, or one political party and their ingrained arrogance. It's about consent versus contempt, partnership versus power grab, devolution versus damage to Holyrood. The condescension 'dripping' from the wet-lipped elite in London as they salivate over their chance to undermine Scotland - a sight to behold!! But this is not 1979 ritchie, or 2014 for that matter, we Scots are awake, WE ARE WATCHING and we don't like what we are witnessing - observe and learn ritchie!! Re the 'venom' that is clearly in part of your thread, thankfully I've past that phase and just wanna present the case for Scottish independence and try to attract more n more like-minded Scots who are proud of our country and have no interest in the union, the 'purring' Queen n country, and the crap 'better together' notion that was peddled as a lie 'from the off' in 2014 and confirmed as utter shit up to now. And as for the shameless serial lying/scaremongering activities of allied unionists like Davidson, Mundell, Rennie and others like Lidington? The list of shameless shit-stirring comments and insinuations is endless with, ohhh surprise surprise - lotsa name-calling now n again to get a reaction but obviously just to emphasise their frustration that the SNP is still very much 'alive and kicking' and so is the Scottish indy movement which is becoming stronger and gathering momentum!!
PS: Good to see your support of independence but it's becoming clear that we must all unify as one and bury our differences. Likewise, I have various issues to contend re certain SNP policies etc and eg parts of the recent Growth Commission publication on future economic growth and I am no fan of the 'ubiquitous', career driven Keith Broon - just a personal dislike TBF! But these issues, incl the SNP's passive brexit stance IMO, are there to be debated and acknowledged by like-minded Scots who will hopefully move on as one (we will never agree on everything but, as you say, that is democracy at work) towards proper home rule or full Scot indy. I want the latter - no pussyfooting about any more! CHANGE IS COMING!
Thing is when dewar led labour MPs on their walk out back in the day it did have influence on the scottish people and it did mean something.
The speaker's condescendingly and gratuitously addressing to the SNP Leader at Westminster, Ian Blackford as he ejected him for daring to stand up to Tory bullying (one tory openly calling on him to commit suicide), sums up the attitude of every last Westminster Tory MP and government member towards scotland, a supposedly equal partner in the union.
Time for Scotland to 'take back control', 'Scoxit means Scoxit', 'there can be no going back', 'Union is an Enemy to the Scottish people' and 'they need us more than we need them', 'westminster full of the unelected and corrupt'...... See we can play that game too.
0762, just a couple of points to conclude my part of this difference of opinion:-
1. I don't have a problem with anything. I am quite calm about it all, unlike you apparently.
2. As you well know, I am observing the SNP's behaviour and, as you say, "we Scots are awake, WE ARE WATCHING and we don't like what we are witnessing". That applies to me too with regard to the SNP.
That's it from me meantime.
Ritchie! I do have a 'problem' (I'd call it a passion!) with many of the issues (there are lots!!), previously described, happening particularly down south as do lotsa other Scots but we are not crossing the border en masse to 'sort it out' or protest - calmness indeed prevails! As commented in my thread I've got well beyond the point of any kinda venomous activity (no point!) but I'll still criticise issues that are worthy of criticism as many other Scots (incl you) will do likewise. As previously said, unity is key to moving forward positively and 'burying our differences' for a common goal. It is not a perfect world politically and that is a fact and by gum, it is so frustrating watching what is going on but 'patience is a virtue' and campaigning for the common good of Scotland and the Scottish people prevails.
(13-06-2018, 22:57)hibeejim21 Wrote: [ -> ]We have been treated with total disrespect by westminster again, 15 mins to debate devolved powers from brexit (most of which are back with theresa may) i don't blame them walking.
The union is done for, the daily mail/express readerships lunatic mindset has taken over and brexit is all that matters.Equal partner my arse. The country is lost,totally lost..
The huge drop in foreign investment of late shows you just where we are heading.
Airbus is now the latest commercial enterprise that is setting up contingency plans to leave the UK due to total indecision (no leadership) or direction by the Tory govt re brexit. Lotsa jobs in jeopardy in Scotland and in England. A similar BMW announcement to follow shortly. Good ol brexit causing a negative effect as usual!
It is getting closer to the time to gauge the likely timetable to progress towards Scot Indy 2, esp when it looks like 50% of the voting population favours Scot Indy. Three questions are inter-linked and can be combined on a timeline: "Can Brexit be stopped?", "Will it be a hard or soft Brexit?" and "When do I think the Scot Indy referendum will happen?" Sept-Dec 2018 will prob see many "defining moments" when the Tory govt will poss implode in total disagreement, a poss general election may follow or an Oct meeting by EU Council that could ratify a deal brokered on a min approval vote by 20 member states. December could see the Article 50 withdrawal agreement being signed by officials from the Council of Europe followed by presentation by the PM in Jan 2019 of the Withdrawal and Implementation Bill through parliament for a final vote - ratify or not? IMO this will be the moment when the type of Brexit will define the message of the Scot Indy movement. On 29 March 2019 at 11.00am we leave the EU but remember there is a 21 month transition period to move to a new trade deal (assuming a no deal has been avoided!) - far too short a time btw, absolute folly. So I reckon Nicola Sturgeon will move in April or May to ask the UK govt for a Section 30 Order to hold an indy referendum - IMO 50/50 whether a British govt will approve it but if no approval is given, other constitutional moves could prevail - eg a majority of SNP seats in a general election gives Sturgeon a mandate to begin negotiations with the UK govt, whoever that may be. By December 31 2020 chaos will ensue anyway and the SNP will be in a far better and stronger position to gain a huge majority in the Holyrood parliament and this will reflect the evolving positive "mood" of the Scot population re Scot Indy.